I was always under the vague impression that Hitler’s hatred of the Jews was more than culturally motivated, but until recently I wasn’t’ aware that the catholic church supported Hitler and the Nazi party. I was never taught in school (and this was back when education meant something in this country) that there was anything religious involved in WWII.
Then again, I was never taught that Japan bombed Australia at the same time as they bombed Pearl Harbor, so I know I have a lot to make up for in my education.
My husband finds me the neatest stuff. He found me a website that I want to share with you. NoBeliefs.com has a whole page on Nazis and religion.
When you realize that the Nazis mixed government with religion and religious fervor and then look at where we’re heading today in America, it makes you sit up and start to take notice.
What good has ever come from religion? Morals? No. Morals based on fear of recrimination aren’t morals, they’re scare tactics and ways to keep people under control. I honestly can’t think of one good thing that has ever come from religion. Not a single thing. Not a single advancement, an improvement in the quality of life… nothing. It’s all come from people struggling against the shackles of the church.
On the other hand, I can think of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Dark Ages, Hitler, christians bombing Planned Parenthoods and killing doctors, on and on… and I’m not even trying very hard! What about the muslims that kill their own children for converting to christianity? Or the religious nitwits that starved that poor boy to death recently because he wouldn’t say amen? Barbaric.
Basing your life on books written during the stone and iron ages by a bunch of angry, hateful old men is not really the smartest way to go. Taking those books literally is beyond ignorant, all the way to highly crazy.
All religion can be used or abused.
Take Israel,the indigenous Palestinians are subject to ethnic cleansing,apartheid and blockades purely because they are not the right religion.
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Sorry to be pedantic but the Church never really supported Hitler as such. There was the Concordat with the Pope which is as close as it came. Even so, when Hitler’s actions became more extremeist the Pope did send Hitler a letter, ‘With Burning Concern’ which was completly ignored. Really the Church only went along with Hitler and the NSDAP through lack of choice but did actually stand up to Nazi policy on a few occasions and were fairly successful. However, this was only when the policies affected the church itself. Even so, numerous priests were put in camps for not supporting the Nazi Regime. The only reason why Hitler did not come down as hard on the Church as he could have done was to try and keep people complacent. He was very concerned about his public image and so destroying the Church would have done him no good. In actualy fact, very few people in Germany at the time supported the regime and the majority were apathetic and willing to give up liberties so as not to be dragged off to a camp.
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I read through this whole discussion and I am appalled of what defines a “rational, free-thinking” person. I see an increasing number of FASCIST atheists, atheists being angry at agnostics for not completely renouncing God, atheists being angry at ALL christians because some of them are missionary-bastards, but the atheists are missionarys too. So many atheists spread their message as “the one TRUTH”, and I resent that. Fact is that proof isn’t the same as highly likely, and that is the best science can do.
I have some to the conclusion that whether you are christian, or atheist, buddhist or agnostic, black or white, you are capable of doing good and doing evil. I see potential atheist crusades soon, because of the intolerance among the masses.
Everyone have their own morals, and those morals are a product of society. Freud tells us that our morals are the stuff that keeps us from blindly following our primal drives. If you grow up in a religious society it’s highly likely that you become a religious person because your learned morals fit the religion. If then your morals fit the religion on some parts, you just pick those, hence it is possible for a christian to go to war because if he thinks it’s okay, the word of Jesus isn’t enough anyway.
Atheists like myself are subject to the exact same, only that we don’t use a religion as an excuse for our beliefs.
Rationality and reason are not copyrighted by atheists, but indoctrination ruins them, whether it is atheist or religios.
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Paul wrote:
“All religion can be used or abused.
Take Israel,the indigenous Palestinians are subject to ethnic cleansing,apartheid and blockades purely because they are not the right religion.”
Wrong, Paul! In the 1900 years prior to 1948, it was the Muslims and Christians who threatened Jews with “conversion or death.” Sorry, but I don’t pity the poor Palestinians at all. They’re getting what they deserve. They chose Hamas, a terrorist organization, as their leaders. They shoot rockets into Israel almost daily. They deserve no rights because THEY are the aggressors, not Israel.
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600 Palestinians killed this year ,men,women and children against 7 Israelis,nuff said.
Israel is based on racism and they cannot help themselves.
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So the Pope wasn’t in the Hitler Youth because he supported Hitler. It was required of everyone in Germany at that time. He never showed enthusiastic allegiance. And he entered the seminary almost immediately after being released from military service.
I’m not a Christian. I’m just saying the whole Hitler Youth thing isn’t as big as some people make it.
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I’ve always been a nonreligious person, however not arrogant enough in my knowledge of the universe to assume the title of atheist. I find religion fascinating and enjoy studying it although I am not an active participant. Although religion has been responsible for numerous atrocities, I must disagree with your statement “I honestly can’t think of one good thing that has ever come from religion.” You cited the Dark Ages as a fault of Christianity, yet for all their faults they were responsible for preserving many things that might have otherwise been destroyed following the the fall of the Roman empire. I certainly admire many of these European countries you speak of for their religious tolerance, but I will not be moving to any place that wants to take 40% or more of my hard-earned income to mobilize some state agenda that could be just as oppressive as any religious doctrine.
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The sad truth that everyone seems to ignore is that every disgusting act that history has ever witnessed was perpetrated by people. Not religion. Not the bible, Koran or any other book. People are the failures. People who were looking for an outlet for the fears and/or frustrations that come with being alive in a hard world. Or men simple seeking a vehicle to further their own agendas. Religion, like the gun or sword, is incapable of anything by itself and needs a human will to affect anything. Remove religion, and people will simply fill the void with something else. Nothing in this world that is the result of a ‘religious cause’ is without some human being who believes that they are benefiting the world in some way. Keep that in mind when laying the blame on religion.
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Please be theologically correct in your epistemics, my dear parapious brethren. The opposite of Faith is not Doubt. It is Certainty. To claim Certainty in relation to one’s knowledge of God is blasphemy. Be humble, my fine, fluffy sheep. You know not the economies of your Shepard. Have you directly bleated with Him recently, or do you rely on the artifices of your local liturgy stand. It is better to live one’s life as best one can as if there were no god, than to be a pretender and seek the ways of the rapture junkies. Take your prescriptions, oh thou mistaken of mind. Repent, ye who speak in the name of the unnamed one. Thy perjury will be dealt with in the flags of time. The sacred petard will hoist thee truly.
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Dear ExtractorOfQuintessence,
shut the hell up.
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Sorry, Jesse. I’m an ex-Catholic and I’m just throwing up.
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There are two discussions here that get mixed up a lot. one is about what the church does and is socially (Flawed, capable of good and bad, no better or worse than most centuries-old bureaucracies when it is all balanced out) and what it is epistemologically ; a system of myths that contain stories, laws, and prophecies out of which some people construct meaningful belief, but which do not hold up to rational and scientific scrutiny. It is hard for many of us atheists to deal with criteria for truth that do not include the scientific and rational, hard for many religious people to admit to exactly how ridiculous religion is by those criteria.
As a worldly entity that was nominally dedicated to the humanistic and peaceful Jesus (which the 20th century catholic church largely was) its relationship with the NAZIs was a shameful episode, one where political expediency was prioritized over a moral vision. Christians loathe Nazis as much as most folks, the church did not use good judgement in their relationship to a clearly loathsome regime. the conversation here seems to have degenerated from History to personal opinion about one another’s beliefs.
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billdave,
Well said.
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I’ll leave aside the distinct possibility that this particular page was in fact designed to solicit personal opinion about one another’s beliefs (and not simply Historical reflection), and take your point, billdave. I’ll also admit that I’m a neophyte blogger and had just finished reading some particularly disturbing Palin-alia prior to stumbling upon this one, and that my comments were indeed a tad degenerate.
However, in keeping with some of the prior themes of discussion, I would want to contest the implicit thought that polemics should be avoided in matters such as these. Besides their entertainment value (and surely, if we’re honest, that is one of the primary reasons most of us are here), there is a legitimate place for extreme perspective. We might recall Mandela here.
The political expediency that infected the Vatican in WWII might have had something to do with “extreme” perspectives within the church being silenced. We could speak about Pope Benedict on this point as well. The human institution of the Catholic Church could be let off the hook as simply a centuries old bureaucracy, except that it nonetheless portends to supernatural insight and has a very definite impact on the lives of many millions. I don’t want to sound conspiratorial here, but the Papacy isn’t simply your run of the mill historical hold-over…
It wasn’t the tame, rational arguments against religion that most affected me when I was a happily church-going christian. It was the polemics, nagging in my head as if the devil (the angel of adversity, I think it was, originally) himself were there. They forced me to think, rather than subsume the general discourse into the category of Late Modern semantic gamesmanship.
Such a scenario may not be applicable for everyone, but if conversion to a more enlightened worldview is the objective, then there ought to be an understanding of the place for polemics in the mix. Unfortunately, the matter of conversion sticks with me as a residue of my earlier messianic commitments. So I hasten to add that I’m not neccesarily looking to change anyone’s mind for them. Rather, I’m looking to clarify my own, and appreciate pretty much any thoughts thrown my way. But this isn’t about me, of course, so please just go on as you were…
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If you want to persuade Christians and Catholics in particular to face the crucial role played by their churches in the Nazi era, then I urge you to become familiar with my http://CatholicArrogance.Org/RCscandal . As a one time Catholic priest, who actually grew up in the shadow of the papacy of Pius XII, I am ashamed of the contributions made by so-called “Christians” and have been doing my best to make Christians and non-Christians alike aware enough of these criminal behaviors to do something about them, including defending gays from persecution and injustice, instead of PROMOTING it.
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By the way my http://CatholicArrogance.Org/ site (also known as http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/) is IMHO the most effective expose of the faults of Roman Catholicism, because as a former priest I know the church’s problems better than most critics do.
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http://stefanolaico.multiply.com/photos/album/1/Alemanha_nazista
more photos
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Neece Reply:
January 11th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Stefano! These are awesome! Thank you for sharing these. They’re very damning. I really appreciate you sharing them.
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Stefano Reply:
January 11th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/5AC.pdf
http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/faqs.html
http://stefanolaico.multiply.com/photos/album/27/Croacia_Ustasha
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jul/21/catholicism.religion
Catholics and collusion in genocide. The Vatican is still thwarting trials of Rwandan clerics. It’s inexcusable.
http://www.priestsofdarkness.com/rwanda.html
Rwandan Genocidal Clergy
FLORENCE, Italy — In this city bursting with beauty, one undistinguished church stands out. Neither very old nor very celebrated, the only reason for its prominence is its deputy priest, a suspect in one of the century’s biggest non-war bloodbaths.
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Neece Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 5:00 am
Thank you again, Stefano. I think this deserves a post instead of just comments.
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Stefano Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 8:51 am
put the photos of my album in your blog!!
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Neece Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I would very much like to do that. But the captions are not in English so I am not sure what they say. Are they in Portuguese?
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Stefano Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 9:14 am
save the photos in your PC!!!
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Neece Reply:
January 14th, 2009 at 2:46 am
I saved the photos. And I would like to do a new post with them very soon. Thanks for all the links, Stefano.
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Stefano Reply:
January 14th, 2009 at 2:53 am
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
The sensational account of the most horrifying religious massacre of the 20th century
By Avro Manhattan
Avro Manhattan (1914-1990)
About the Author:
Avro Manhattan was the world’s foremost authority on Roman Catholicism in politics. A resident of London, during WW II he operated a radio station called “Radio Freedom” broadcasting to occupied Europe. He was the author of over 20 books including the best-seller The Vatican in World Politics, twice Book-of-the-Month and going through 57 editions. He was a Great Briton who risked his life daily to expose some of the darkest secrets of the Papacy. His books were #1 on the Forbidden Index for the past 50 years!!
The Vatican’s Holocaust – Revealed at Last!
A sensational account of the most horrifying religious massacre of the 20th century. Startling revelations of forced conversions, mass murder of non-Catholics, Catholic extermination camps, disclosures of Catholic clergy as commanders of concentration camps; documented with names, dates, places, pictures and eyewitness testimony.
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Ray Dubuque Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Thank you Stefano, for this excellent information. No thanks to the Catholic Church, their Rwandan priest was finally brought to justice in 2006, a life sentence, the harshest penalty available :http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16189347/.
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Stefano Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
See!
http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/5AC.pdf
http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/faqs.html
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Stefano Reply:
January 11th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
your email?
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Neece Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 5:00 am
my email is heavingdeadcats@gmail.com
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Stefano Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 8:48 am
I add you!!!
my mail is steve.daniele@gmail.com
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Stefano Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 9:15 am
I add you in google talk!
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I became an atheist when I was a teenager and it was liberating.
No more feeling guilty for just about everything.
Your morals become stronger too because you do not have a crutch to lean on only your own ethics.
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Neece Reply:
January 12th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Well said, Paul. Thank you very much for commenting.
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Stefano, As you say,
“Avro Manhattan was the world’s foremost authority on Roman Catholicism in politics.” Your link goes to his book and of course is very lengthy. I’ve created a summary of the high points on my http://CatholicArrogance.Org/CroatianHolocaust.html
page.
An author friend of mine has been trying in vain to find actual proof that Avra died as is claimed in 1990. He was working on a book about the murder of the liberal pope John Paul the First, who died under extremely suspicious circumstances just 33 days into his term at age 65. See my page about this at http://CatholicArrogance.Org/murderedpope.html .
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Do you realize there was at least one Jewish American philanthropist’s financial legacy that contributed funds to eugenic research that was directly related to the Nazis’ claim of racial superiority?
Using your illogic, would that discredit all Jews or Judaism?
Of course not.
To stereotype is repugnant.
Although I am not a Christian, I would never assume Catholics support Nazism.
That said, and as a scholar of World War II, I share your disgust with the Catholic Church’s complicity in The Holocaust; however, there were many, many Catholics in Germany who saved Jews.
And there were Jews who were complicit in helping the Nazis exterminate other Jews.
Your simplistic post reveals your ignorance of history. I suggest you read a bit more about World War II. You will find out that the Catholic Church was not the only religious denomination nor religion to be tarnished by its association with Hitler.
Did you know there was an SS unit that was Muslim? Are you aware of Islamic support of Hitler? Do you know anything about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem?
Probably not, as your ignorance is quite apparent. That is a pity, because ignorance is a danger to humanity as well.
Just so your anti-Catholic view is put in perspective, you should know that one of my college professors was a Jew saved by a Catholic family.
So, as you condemn an entire religious denomination, you might want to do a little research and find out how many Catholics saved Jews, while acknowledging the church’s complicity that cannot be ignored.
Making generalizations is easy. Condemning is easy.
Actually gaining knowledge is difficult, but perhaps if my college professor, a survivor were stil alive, he could tell you how he felt about the courageous, God-loving Catholics that kept him from the ovens.
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Neece Reply:
January 21st, 2009 at 6:41 am
Do you feel better now that you’ve run the gamut of ad hominem attacks on me? I’m not going to defend my post, my position or anything else in regards to your hateful rant. You apparently didn’t even read it very closely, because you attacked me with strong and vicious language that had very little to do with what I said. Typical logical fallacies.
To stereotype is repugnant, you say. And yet you claim to know what I was thinking and my motivations for what I wrote. Hmm… how interesting. Since you seem to have missed the whole point of the post. Strong language, though. Oh, how mighty you must be.
You said my ignorance is quite apparent. An ad hominem attack. And I say your impotent anger is very telling.
You assumed I’m anti-catholic. In fact, you’re wrong again. I’m anti-religion.
You brought up a personal anecdote to try to strengthen your case, sort of an argument from authority.
Weak. All weak and feeble. All you did was show yourself to be an enormous, pontificating buffoon, nothing more. Sure, you can throw shit at me, but at the end of the day, you’re still a hateful, angry boor writing scathing attacks on random blogs.
You could have written a comment that was intelligent, informative and even disagreed with what I was saying. We could have even learned from each other, in some distant backwards universe. No, instead you took the low road of insult and attack, throwing your shit. Why? Do you secretly fear your beliefs are wrong? Maybe that’s it. I don’t claim to know what’s in your hateful mind.
Now… let’s move on. It seems you didn’t spit out enough vitriol in one comment, you had to follow up with more.
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Krista Reply:
January 21st, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Of course there are Catholics who are good people but they are people who have been fooled. They are the blind sheep that fuel an evil machine. Catholicism throughout history has committed atrocity after atrocity, wronged the human race on a million levels. To ignore this or plead that there are common people who are kind and generous and even heroic who are Catholic and therefore they excuse it is to perpetuate the greatest lie that has ever been told; that there is a god. Even the bible will tell you that in order to sell a lie you must mix it up with truth and goodness. THAT is how the catholic church has gotten by with what it has.
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Neece Reply:
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Exactly, Krista! Blind sheep that fuel an evil machine! What an excellent way to say it.
Also, just because a few followers are good and kind doesn’t make the organization good and kind. Those people would most likely be good without the church.
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As for moving to another country, why don’t you try one of the 57-member nations of the Organization of The Islamic Conference?
They surely won’t shove Christianity down your throat.
Oh, no. Take Iran for instance. They will kill you because you don’t believe in God.
Last time I checked in America, I fail to see where Christians are shoving Christianity down non-Christians’ throats. Such a statement reveals your obsession with your own paranoia.
See, I’m not a Christian, but married to very devout Christian who does what most Christians do: practice their faith.
Your hatred is repugnant and displays paranoia. Tell me, how are Christians shoving their beliefs down your throat? Because they have Christian magazines and newspapers? Don’t read them. Because they have Christian radio and TV stations? Don’t listen and/watch them.
It’s simple. Ignore them.
But if you really believe in the big, bad wolf, and really want to leave our free country that allows us to be atheists or agnostics or Christians, or in my case, a Bahá’í, then go to one of the OIC countries. I’m sure they will welcome you to the gallows with open arms.
You and the other posters here who have displayed such prejudice, generalizations and mockery of Christians are repugnant.
You, who claim victimization at the hands of Christians, are discriminatory victimizers.
You cry about Christians “shoving” their religion down your throat while you resort to prejudice that is just as despicable as racism.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Hatred is sickening. Stereotypes are sickening. Discrimination is sickening. Yet you and the other posters here are poster childs for all of that.
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Neece Reply:
January 21st, 2009 at 6:56 am
Last time I checked in America, christians are trying to get creationism taught in schools as science, the right to choose is on the table again because of christians wanting to push their morals onto what women can do with their own bodies, and states are fighting to keep prayers and god out of their governments and soldiers in the military are forced to attend christian prayers. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
I don’t care what you are. I don’t care if you’re a wiccan nordic priestess practicing voodoo. It’s your right to do so. But I have freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion too. That’s my right.
You dare call my hatred repugnant when you spew forth vitriol so wantonly? Hypocrisy, thy name is glenn franco simmons.
Taste your own medicine. You don’t like what my simple blog has to say? Take your poison tongue elsewhere. Don’t read it.
You speak of prejudice, generalizations and mockery, mr. hypocrite. Your vituperations are tiresome. And how does stating my opinion make me a victimizer? Your arguments are meaningless and fallacious.
Hatred IS sickening. You are gagging on your own bitter bile. You are a bigot of the highest order. You are dismissed.
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Krista Reply:
January 21st, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Discrimination is sickening. As a lesbian I know this firsthand. Who passed prop 8? Religious people. They were just doing what they do. Practicing their faith.
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Neece Reply:
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Exactly. It’s disgusting the amount of hate and bigotry is perpetrated against fellow humans in the name of religious dogma. Thanks for your comments, Krista.
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Mr. Simmons,
My only relationship to Neece is like yours as a visitor to her blog. Far from being an atheist, I’m a Christian clergyman, a former priest who in fact bore the name “Pius” for a time as a member of the Order of St. Dominic.
If, as you say, “To stereotype is repugnant.” why are you doing it to Neece? Even if your claim that she is ignorant of some relatively unimportant fact, does that make her “ignorant”. I would say from your posts here that both you and she are very knowledgeable, and yet like me are ignorant of many things.
What is the meaning of your “I would never assume Catholics support Nazism.” Are you stereotyping someone as saying that “All Catholics support Nazism”? or claiming that ” No Catholics support Nazism” ?
If the issue is to be discussed intelligently, I submit that the question to be answered is “Did the Catholic Church contribute MORE to the persecution of the Jews or to saving the Jews?”
And if THAT is the question, then I submit abundant evidence at my http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/RCscandal on the basis of years of study to the question that there’s no way to avoid the conclusion that in a country that was 98% at the time, both the Protestant and Catholic branches of Christianity bear enormous responsibility for the atrocities of the Jewish Holocaust.
How significant are your isolated examples of Catholic heroism compared to the fact that THE LEADERSHIP of the Church hardly uttered a peep in protest, and when it did, it was usually on behalf of the few Jews who had become ROMAN CATHOLICS?
When certain Catholics acted with exceptional heroism, how can anyone say they did so out of Catholic faith as opposed to simple human decency?
How can anyone make a big deal out of these few exceptions and not make a much bigger deal out of the fact that the vast majority of Nazi bigwigs were Roman Catholics?
Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Josef Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Rudolf Hoess, Julius Streicher, Fritz Thyssen (who bankrolled the Nazi rise to power), Klaus Barbie, and Franz Von Papen were all Roman Catholics, as were
+ Leon Degrelle who headed the Nazi state of Belgium,
+ Emil Hacha who headed the Nazi state of Bohemia-Moravia,
+ Ante Pavelic who headed the Nazi state of Croatia,
+ Konrad Henlein who headed the Nazi state of Sudetenland,
+ Pierre Laval and then Henry Petain who headed the Nazi state of Vichy-France.
+ the priest, Msgr. Josef Tiso, who headed the Nazi state of Slovakia.
(who wasn’t even defrocked after the defeat of the Nazis).
Although these were among the most visible Catholic lay people in their countries at the time, did Pope Pius XII excommunicate a single one of them? NO. How can anyone say that this pope did “all that he could”, when he failed to take this obvious measure so as to make it clear to the millions of Catholic faithful who were enabling the Nazis to carry out their campaigns of mass murder, not only against Jews, but against their fellow Catholics in Poland, that they should have no part in these monstrous of crimes and most mortal of sins? Apologists for Pius XII who claim that their crimes caused these people to be “automatically excommunicated” miss the point that excommunication isn’t intended to tell GOD who is a Catholic and who isn’t but to tell THE FAITHFUL whom to shun.
On the other hand, after the Nazis were defeated and no longer posed any threat to the pope, the Vatican, or the Catholic Church anywhere, did Pope Pius XII allow the Vatican to be used to protect thousands of Catholic war criminals such as the above to escape punishment for their war crimes? YES. Whose side was the pope on?
Here are some of the more infamous war criminals the Vatican protected from prosecution:
Adolf Eichmann, “the architect of the Holocaust”, ,
Alois Brunner , referred to as his “best man” by Eichman,
Dr. Josef Mengele, “the Angel of Death” ,
Franz Stangl, commandant of the Sobibór and of Treblinka extermination camp ,
Gustav Wagner assistant to Franz Stangl,
Klaus Barbie, “the Butcher of Lyon” ,
Edward Roschmann, “the Butcher of Riga”,
Aribert Heim, Mauthausen concentration camp’s “Dr. Death”,
Walter Rauff, believed responsible for nearly 100,000 deaths
Andrija Artuković, “the Himmler of the Balkans”
Ante Pavelić, head of Catholic Croatia, arguably the most murderous regime in relation to its size in Axis-occupied Europe.
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Neece Reply:
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:44 pm
Hi Ray, thanks for a very detailed comment. It’s much appreciated.
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