Hey everyone. A bit ago, I posted Here We Go Again which was from a comment from a christian named Ash. I heard from him again. This is the opening of his email:
I’m not too interested in argument, since I’m sure we’ll get to a point where everything becomes circular. I’m wondering if we could share our personal experiences and philosophies and discuss their effects on our differing beliefs. For example, the church I attended until I was 13 never talked about “burning in hell,” but focused more on New Testament teachings. Fear of hell has never been a big reason for me to believe in God.
I also remember asking a lot of questions. After reading one of those Kid’s encyclopedia for science books I asked my youth pastor how God could have created man when man evolved from monkeys. He said that nobody can know the exact time frame or manner in which God created the universe. I was confused since, didn’t Genesis say He spent six days and made Adam from dust? Now that I know the meaning of figurative language I think I understand what my pastor was trying to say.
Interesting stuff here. I meant to ask him, what brand of christianity were you in until you were 13 that never mentioned burning in hell? Jesus was big on using hell as a threat, and it’s mentioned quite frequently in the new testament, so what church would skip all those bits? Of course, I’ve made it clear that I find cherry-picking bits and pieces of the bible to be a weak apologetic way to use the bible for your own gain. But hey, that’s just me.
He goes on:
Some questions I want to present:
What do you think about the worth of human life?
My reply: I think life is pretty damned precious. I think human life is important, mainly because I’m human, but I think animals and plants are really important too. We’re all on this planet together, and I think we need to cherish all life. Except mosquitoes. Ok, even mosquitoes because they feed birds. But I don’t have to like them.
We only get one try at this life, so I think we need to always try our best to get it right, be a good person, learn as much as possible, and make the world a better place if we can.
The “problem” of tolerance: In America, we’re all encouraged to practice tolerance towards any race, religion, belief system. However, the Christian doctrine tells us to spread God’s word across the world. This is a very important part of Christianity. Do you think this factor of Christianity is reason enough to label Christians as “intolerant,” and would you support rendering evangelism illegal in this country?
Me again: Honestly, I don’t think you can legislate or force tolerance. It’s something that can only come through education and experience. Indoctrination can lead to intolerance by instilling hateful beliefs in people. I don’t think you can outlaw evangelism or fundamentalism. We have the Bill of Rights for a reason. I do think we could better educate people, and maybe find a way to make the media more accountable to how they cover stuff. If they were accountable like they used to be, if they had to get their facts straight, and if schools taught critical thinking, I think that would fix a lot of problems over time.
Unfortunately I don’t think we’ve hit bottom yet, and I don’t see anything like those ideas being talked about. I think it will get worse, more polarized to the extremes long before it gets better. As long as people aren’t taught how to think critically, I think the general population is pretty much doomed to be sheep. They will simply be led in whatever direction the media and the extremists prod them to go.
Have you ever read any well-written, thorough Christian apologetics, and if so, did any of it sound valid? Or is Christianity completely insensible? Aside from the whole faith thing, can you give me one specific thing about Christianity that doesn’t make any sense to you? I’d appreciate it if you gave me one personal example instead of pointing me to an atheist list of everything that’s wrong with Christianity, as I’ve read those before.
Me again: I think the idea of christianity is, like all religions, nonsensical. I think christianity is even worse with the pieced-together myths and stories they stole from previous religions. Personally the very idea of christian apologetics is hypocritical and desperate. They try desperately to make sense out of a bunch of books that were written in different languages in ancient times, under totally foreign circumstances. And now they are trying to shoehorn that one big book, the bible, to fit into how to live today.
Instead of making a conclusion – that christianity can be taken at face value, and that it’s all completely true – and then trying to fit the bible and any other information scrounged together to make it all work, I think the best way to go is to say, wait a minute… let’s look at all the information, and see what is based in reality, with supporting evidence. Of course, for most people, if you do it right, that leads to atheism, like it did for me.
What doesn’t make sense in christianity? The miracles. Why would anyone seriously believe that Jesus walked on water based on hearsay? Or that he raised Lazarus from the dead? If you take a bit of fact, that the gospels were written 50-80 years after Jesus was crucified, that no one who wrote the new testament ever laid eyes on Jesus, and then another bit of fact that the Romans at the time were meticulous record keepers who documented everything and never made any mention EVER of this troublesome Jew named Jesus, or anyone by any name that told that story, then you go back to the stories and read them over, noting how even those 4 books (the gospels) contradict each other, what do you have? Not much. (See below for my EDIT)
The bible is one contradiction after another. It was written by men over many years, in different languages, for different reasons. So, why do christians just pick and choose passages and chapters to fit their message of today? Because the rest of the bible contradicts it.
Ok.. you wanted something more personal. What I wrote is basically my personal journey to atheism. I don’t know what else I can say. Nothing about christianity seems logical or sensible to me. Most of the people who call themselves christian that I deal with in my life (family members) are the most intolerant, nasty people I know. They love to talk about praying and god’s plan, to belittle anyone who doesn’t believe exactly like they believe and worship in the same church as they do. 99% of them are hypocrites*. 99% of them are very bitter and unhappy*. It is incredibly unappealing to be around them. They talk of nothing but church and god and how no one else is as good as they are. I find it disgusting. (“I know one christian and her 2 awesome kids that keep religion to themselves, basically. They walk the walk by being good people and not seeming to judge others’ beliefs as inherently wrong, while keeping the talk pretty much to themselves, which is refreshing. But that’s 3 christians who actually seem to try to be good people and who don’t shove christianity in my face, against many more hypocritical, bitter christians who talk the talk but that’s where it ends).
Would you ever consider re-learning the Bible, or are you not even slightly interested?
More Neece: Funny you should ask me that. I read the bible and refer to it often. To me, if you read the bible thoroughly, it will lead you to atheism. My experience is that almost all atheists I know or deal with, know more about the bible and can quote it more accurately than any christian. I myself am not one to quote it, as I can never remember all the chapter and verse stuff, but I am able to find what I need pretty easily, because I have a good working knowledge of it.
That’s the end of the email exchange so far. I think this makes more sense, instead of making it an argument, we are really having a discussion. 
EDIT: I just read Michael Mock’s comment and I have to say, the whole idea of jesus dying for everyone else’s sins is pretty preposterous, too. This comic explains the crazy “logic”:
Dead Person: But I’m forgiven! You died on the cross for the world’s sins! I believe in you! Jesus Saves!
Jesus on the throne: That’s absurd. Why would I need to sacrifice myself to myself to allow me to change a rule… I made myself!
Seriously, why do christians just accept that circular nonsense without question? Oh, right, because the bible says it’s true. Wait, it still doesn’t make a bit of sense.
I’d like to throw out a few comments:
To the not burning in hell teaching:
It is highly doubtful you didn’t. Nobody wants to say they’re in a religion out of fear, so such a fear is repressed. But just saying this, you get salvation from believing, means you don’t get it if you don’t believe…. The threat has always been there, and a really young age you probably feared it greatly, but as you grew it was covered up. I ask you this, would you be fine going to hell? If you say no, you fear it in some way. A place of eternal torture, hell I’d be scared. If such a place existed, I would fear it. It’s a mental trap, it keeps you hooked, not necessarily that you think of it as a reason… but when you try to get out, yeah, that’s when you feel it.
“support rendering evangelism illegal”
I wouldn’t. I like to call it this thing called freedom. Where, like, even if I didn’t like the idea of homosexual marriages, I still wouldn’t ban them. Sound similar to a situation that just happened? That, is the problem of tolerance in America.
“Christian apologetics”
Never, not once. I have a bone to pick with nearly every argument they have ever made. Sure though, some of them sometimes sound fairly valid, until I go a bit deeper into them and realize the consequences of the arguments.
“re-learning”
And what do you mean by “re-learning”? I had this little quest once, I started to go through the bible and highlighting things of a certain color. Murder, black. Violence and bad things, red. Nice, kind things, blue. Circular reasoning, gray. And so forth… the problem? I’d get a blue thing every 3-7 pages while a red and black thing every page. Yeah, it doesn’t quite work out when your actually reading everything in it.
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Neece Reply:
May 31st, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Good perspective, GMN. I agree.
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GMNightmare Reply:
May 31st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
“Never, not once.”
For clarification on this comment of mine, I mean since I’ve considered myself an atheist. Which has been, quite awhile.
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There are at least *some* denominations that don’t spend much time talking about the “burning in Hell” portions of Christian doctrine. I was raised Episcopalian, and while the idea was there, it was very seldom mentioned or discussed. I don’t remember ever being really, deeply scared of the idea. Maybe, as GMNightmare suggests, that’s just denial or repression, but I don’t think so. I remember being completely creeped out by the idea of God as a sort of Cosmic Peeping Tom (He’s everywhere! He watches your every move! He even knows what’s in your heart! Plus, he’s invisible!). Compared to that, Hell just wasn’t a big worry.
Looking back, I think that I was actually told not to worry about it; I think explanation was basically, “You’re already baptized, God is merciful, and you try to be a good person, right? Well, He knows we’re not perfect. He’ll understand.”
Ash asked: “Aside from the whole faith thing, can you give me one specific thing about Christianity that doesn’t make any sense to you?”
Not to break in on Neece’s exchange, but I can offer several. The big one that doesn’t work for me is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It’s the central event of Christianity, the claim that distinguishes it from everything else… and the more I look at it, the less sense it makes to me.
If I had to choose one thing about the scenario that simply doesn’t make sense, it’s this: how does Jesus‘ sacrifice have any effect on my sins? If salvation requires some sort of atonement for the things I’ve done wrong, then I need to be doing something about it: offering apologies; making amends or reparations; and perhaps helping others in order to balance the scales. The death of a single man (or god) two thousand years ago… I just can’t see the connection. I can’t see where that would make any difference. (Yes, I’ve heard the explanation where God is the judge who finds us guilty and then pays the price himself, but I’ve never found it compelling. Those are still my sins, and I just don’t see how anyone else, man or god, can meaningfully atone for them.)
I have other issues with the scenario, but that’s a start.
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Neece Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:18 am
Yeah, also, the whole idea of being watched all the time by an invisible sky daddy who is judging me was pretty creepy when I was a kid too.
And you’re right, Michael. I edited my post and included my favorite comic about the silliness of the whole sacrificial god/man thing. It’s basically schizophrenic and insane.
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There is a large difference in emphasis on hell across various denominations… which is rather odd to me. Hell wasn’t mentioned at all in the Old Testament – as Hitchens has suggested, it wasn’t until Jesus-meek-and-mild appeared on the scene that hell became important.
And given what hell is supposed to be, isn’t a Christian religion that de-emphasizes it just playing games? I mean, eternal torment is a big freakin’ deal… rather than the 400-lb gorilla in the room, I’d call it the 4,000,000-ton gorilla.
Then again, ignorance (or apathy) shrouds most of the Bible, not just hell – imagine what percentage of Biblical verses are actually mentioned in most churches. 2% would be a stretch, I think. I doubt many denominations focus on the ridiculous double-description of the arc of the covenant, Jesus cursing the fig tree, Lot sleeping with both his daughters, God sending bears to maul children who tease a bald prophet, and the need to stone homosexuals, witches and rebellious children, etc. etc. etc.
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GMNightmare Reply:
June 8th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Hell had to arrive simply due to heaven existing. If heaven exists, and not everybody goes there, then everybody else has to go somewhere else… thus hell. Also, it creates the mental fear trap… it is the easiest yet also the strongest trap to use. If you fear something, you will go out of your way not to face that fear. You will give up things, you will obey, you’ll basically be a slave if it keeps you away from whatever you fear. And of course, religion needs members or it will cease to exist… and the people at the top won’t get to live in upper class style if everybody leaves and won’t pay tribute. Fear is also a common political tool as well.
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Neece Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Well the Jews never really believed in heaven as a place to go after death, did they? I still think they don’t subscribe to the heaven/hell thing. So yeah, it would be a christian invention. I also read that when the Jews went to Persia (can’t remember why they were there, sorry) they got the notion of hell from the zoroastrians. Maybe, maybe not. Just a remnant from my world history class a few years ago.
You’re so right, GMN. Fear is a powerful motivator. The early christians really tapped into the afterlife mythos and emphasized the hell side to their great success.
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Neece Reply:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:23 am
If Jesus was an Essene, it makes sense that he’d go on about hellfire and brimstone. The Essenes were a doomsday cult, weren’t they? I think I remember that right, and I think if he did exist, which is doubtful, it was pretty likely that he might have studied in Qumran where they often talked about end-times and the like.
Erk, you bring a lot of good thoughts to the table. I agree with everything you said.
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