Comments on: Conversations With Ash: 1 – Answering Questions

By: Neece

Neece — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:28:21 +0000

Well the Jews never really believed in heaven as a place to go after death, did they? I still think they don’t subscribe to the heaven/hell thing. So yeah, it would be a christian invention. I also read that when the Jews went to Persia (can’t remember why they were there, sorry) they got the notion of hell from the zoroastrians. Maybe, maybe not. Just a remnant from my world history class a few years ago.

You’re so right, GMN. Fear is a powerful motivator. The early christians really tapped into the afterlife mythos and emphasized the hell side to their great success.

By: Neece

Neece — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:23:04 +0000

If Jesus was an Essene, it makes sense that he’d go on about hellfire and brimstone. The Essenes were a doomsday cult, weren’t they? I think I remember that right, and I think if he did exist, which is doubtful, it was pretty likely that he might have studied in Qumran where they often talked about end-times and the like.

Erk, you bring a lot of good thoughts to the table. I agree with everything you said.

By: GMNightmare

GMNightmare — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:17:01 +0000

Hell had to arrive simply due to heaven existing. If heaven exists, and not everybody goes there, then everybody else has to go somewhere else… thus hell. Also, it creates the mental fear trap… it is the easiest yet also the strongest trap to use. If you fear something, you will go out of your way not to face that fear. You will give up things, you will obey, you’ll basically be a slave if it keeps you away from whatever you fear. And of course, religion needs members or it will cease to exist… and the people at the top won’t get to live in upper class style if everybody leaves and won’t pay tribute. Fear is also a common political tool as well.

By: erk

erk — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:22:23 +0000

There is a large difference in emphasis on hell across various denominations… which is rather odd to me. Hell wasn’t mentioned at all in the Old Testament – as Hitchens has suggested, it wasn’t until Jesus-meek-and-mild appeared on the scene that hell became important.

And given what hell is supposed to be, isn’t a Christian religion that de-emphasizes it just playing games? I mean, eternal torment is a big freakin’ deal… rather than the 400-lb gorilla in the room, I’d call it the 4,000,000-ton gorilla.

Then again, ignorance (or apathy) shrouds most of the Bible, not just hell – imagine what percentage of Biblical verses are actually mentioned in most churches. 2% would be a stretch, I think. I doubt many denominations focus on the ridiculous double-description of the arc of the covenant, Jesus cursing the fig tree, Lot sleeping with both his daughters, God sending bears to maul children who tease a bald prophet, and the need to stone homosexuals, witches and rebellious children, etc. etc. etc.

By: Neece

Neece — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 05:18:05 +0000

Yeah, also, the whole idea of being watched all the time by an invisible sky daddy who is judging me was pretty creepy when I was a kid too.

And you’re right, Michael. I edited my post and included my favorite comic about the silliness of the whole sacrificial god/man thing. It’s basically schizophrenic and insane.

By: Michael Mock

Michael Mock — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:59:38 +0000

There are at least *some* denominations that don’t spend much time talking about the “burning in Hell” portions of Christian doctrine. I was raised Episcopalian, and while the idea was there, it was very seldom mentioned or discussed. I don’t remember ever being really, deeply scared of the idea. Maybe, as GMNightmare suggests, that’s just denial or repression, but I don’t think so. I remember being completely creeped out by the idea of God as a sort of Cosmic Peeping Tom (He’s everywhere! He watches your every move! He even knows what’s in your heart! Plus, he’s invisible!). Compared to that, Hell just wasn’t a big worry.

Looking back, I think that I was actually told not to worry about it; I think explanation was basically, “You’re already baptized, God is merciful, and you try to be a good person, right? Well, He knows we’re not perfect. He’ll understand.”

Ash asked: “Aside from the whole faith thing, can you give me one specific thing about Christianity that doesn’t make any sense to you?”

Not to break in on Neece’s exchange, but I can offer several. The big one that doesn’t work for me is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It’s the central event of Christianity, the claim that distinguishes it from everything else… and the more I look at it, the less sense it makes to me.

If I had to choose one thing about the scenario that simply doesn’t make sense, it’s this: how does Jesus‘ sacrifice have any effect on my sins? If salvation requires some sort of atonement for the things I’ve done wrong, then I need to be doing something about it: offering apologies; making amends or reparations; and perhaps helping others in order to balance the scales. The death of a single man (or god) two thousand years ago… I just can’t see the connection. I can’t see where that would make any difference. (Yes, I’ve heard the explanation where God is the judge who finds us guilty and then pays the price himself, but I’ve never found it compelling. Those are still my sins, and I just don’t see how anyone else, man or god, can meaningfully atone for them.)

I have other issues with the scenario, but that’s a start.

By: GMNightmare

GMNightmare — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 00:37:48 +0000

“Never, not once.”
For clarification on this comment of mine, I mean since I’ve considered myself an atheist. Which has been, quite awhile.