Sometimes a post is handed to me on a silver platter. If only I was superstitious and religious, I’d think god his bad self had Mark write this just to help me out when I was in a tight spot. Unfortunately, I’m a godless heathen. Let the blasphemy begin!
I wrote a post on HDC awhile ago called 10 Reasons Atheists Are Morally Superior To Religious Fundamentalists. I toned it down then cross posted it to de-conversion a month ago, and I still get comments on there. Yesterday a guy named Mark wrote the comment below. After each reason, I’ll leave a reply:
Try to read and see who is really ignorant.. (by Mark on deConversion – comment 196)
Ten reasons to believe in God
1. Are you sure God doesn’t exist? You are willing to contend, aren’t you, that there is a tiny chance that God does exist? If you don’t believe in him, and he DOES exist, you’re screwed. You HAVE A CHOICE. When the day comes to choose who enters Heaven, it is highly doubtful you will be chosen, if you don’t believe. Isn’t it safer just to believe?
Puh-lease. Pascal’s Wager, Mark. I am not wasting my life on the off chance that some jealous sky daddy is up there messing around with my afterlife. I prefer to live my one life now, instead of groveling and begging to an invisible friend that ignores me.
2. So you have moral dilemmas? They’re annoying, aren’t they? What is right and what is wrong? Who knows? The law? Crap, you cross the street at a red light. God knows what is right and what is wrong. Believe, and all your moral problems are solved. If you are ever stuck again with a moral dilemma, just ask your local priest, rabbi or equivalent. He’ll explain it all to you.
Nice, condescending attitude coming from a christian. I am an ethical atheist. I am good for morally superior reasons to you. I am good and kind simply because it makes sense and I choose to be, not because I am afraid of hellfire and torment everlasting. I don’t need an invisible parent watching my every move to make me feel like I have to do the right thing. I just do it because it’s right. Religious people are not pure and innocent. Ask the catholic church about that one. Or bible thumping assholes that fill up our prisons. I got my morals from school, teachers I admired, role models from my life. I saw what was good, and how I wanted to be treated, and I realized it was best to treat others well too. Common freaking sense.
Not to mention, your god is a total asshole. He demanded death, murder, rape, slaughter,war, slavery and the death of innocent children at every turn when he talked to people. Then he came up with some stupid idea to kill his son to save us, even though he’s the one who set us up for failure in the first place. I aspire to be much nicer than god ever has. Anyone who tries to be godlike will surely end up in jail for heinous crimes, because god was completely amoral and downright evil. Not that he existed.
3. You have sinned, you know. And you DO know it. Even if you don’t call it sin. So you call it “a mistake”. But you can’t forgive yourself. God knows you’ve tried. You can’t forgive yourself. Well, if God can forgive you, you’ll be able to forgive yourself too. All the major religions have methods of forgiveness. For example:
* Christianity : confession,
* Islam : Ramadan,
* Judaism : Yom Kippur.
No, I haven’t sinned because sin is simply a control mechanism for keeping sheep like you in line by the church. I also take personal responsibility for my mistakes and errors in my life. I made them and I will live with them. That’s what grownups do. We are personally responsible. We don’t dump our problems on our invisible friend then go “sin” some more because we feel we can just apologize for it later.
4. Can you explain infinity? I can’t. I’m talking about two dimensions of infinity. Spacial and temporal. Talk quantum mechanics, and dimension folding all you like, the human mind can never grasp it. I don’t think anyone can comprehend infinity. If you believe in God, no problem.
Maybe I can’t explain infinity but that’s why I look to science for such awesome concepts. Maybe god conveniently answers your few little questions, but science never stops asking and searching and learning and observing. We don’t give up at the first sign of amazement, throw our hands up and say god did it. We are creative and thoughtful and searching. It’s a wonderful thing you in your narrow world view can never appreciate.
5. You can’t possibly believe that evolution theory completely. Oh, I’ll agree, natural selection exists. Of course it does. Creation theory does not conflict with the belief in natural selection, don’t make any mistakes. Of course, many people believe it does, but that’s mostly because they are misinformed. Natural selection hardly explains Man. And where is that missing link? You can’t possibly believe that Man (a conscious being) originated from the monkey, which is so far below him?
I accept evolutionary theory and understand that we learn more and answer more pieces of it all the time. That’s what science does. YOU are misinformed. You are getting your view of the world from a 2,000 year old text written by bronze and iron age goat herders who thought donkeys and bushes talked to them. If you believe that man originated from the monkey you are an ignorant fool who never read the first thing about evolution. You simply “know” what your preacher told you. And you are wrong.
And why are monkeys below man? They are just as perfectly evolved as humans. They simply took a different path than us. The snail and the scorpion have evolved perfectly. They are awesome. Man is simply better able to manage his environment, and much more able to destroy it. Yeah, we’re so superior. At any rate, read a freaking book that was actually written in the last 100 years for a change and you might learn what real evolutionary theory is all about.
6. What happens when we die? Scary, isn’t it? Don’t you have a soul? Of course you do. You can’t possibly, deep in your heart believe that we just die and disintegrate? There has to be an afterlife.
You don’t know any more than any other living thing on the planet what happens when we die. And we all die. We were not living for billions of years before now, so the worst part about dying is who we leave behind to miss us. That’s it. I don’t need to be afraid of what happens after we die. I accept that this is my one life. Your fear of death leads you to subjugate yourself in this life to a supposed higher power for which there is no evidence. I don’t want to die because I still have things I want to do and learn, and I want to be with my family and friends. And I certainly don’t want to leave them. Grow up and deal with it. We all die. It’s natural.
7. The bible contains predictions of the future. Many predictions have already happened, so if you are a disbeliever, you can see for yourself. No other book in the world has so many prophetic words and codes interwoven into it as the bible. Many experiments have shown this. Coincidence?
The bible is a collection of a bunch of cobbled together stories and stolen myths from other religions from 2,000 to 4,000 years ago. It has never predicted the future, any more than Nostradamus has with his vague ramblings. Seeing patterns where they don’t exist is the sign of someone who feels out of control. Why do you feel so out of control if you have your precious god watching over you? Maybe because deep down you know that god is totally made up in your head? Perhaps. I am not superstitious and have no need to read into ancient texts for hidden meaning that isn’t there. Read a real book, about science, and maybe you won’t feel so out of control.
8. The world today is full of pornography and gore and is low on moral fiber. You know it’s wrong. And you sure as heck don’t want your children to grow up in such a society. The return to morals is the only solution, and the only way to do that is through BELIEF.
The world is full of porn and gore and yet so many millions and millions of people are god fearing. Funny. How about the fact that divorce, teen pregnancy and children out of wedlock happens more in the bible belt in America than anywhere else? Being religious does not preclude you from beating off to porn on your computer. Go to Google Trends and look up pornographic terms and see which countries search for those terms the most. You’ll find a lot of perverts in very religious areas. Coincidence? I think not. What about child molesting priests? Where did you ever get the silly notion that religion = morals? You couldn’t be more flawed in your logic. Critical thinking and empathy makes for moral people. Your god has no corner on the moral market. He’s devoid of it. And the idea that belief (which is simply accepting that something is true with no evidence) leads to morals which leads to a better society is asinine. That sentence is devoid of meaning. Seriously.
9. Most of the world does, in fact, believe in God. How could this be, if God didn’t exist? If you’ve strayed off the path, you must return to it. Everyone was born capable of believing in God. Some haven’t found Him yet, others have lost Him. He WILL take you back.
A majority of people believing in the brainwashing they’ve been indoctrinated with means nothing. A majority of Americans believe SUVs are safe. They’re all wrong. They believe the marketing of the car companies. See, a majority opinion doesn’t make something right.
Everyone is born atheist. Only dogma and indoctrination make people into mindless sheeple, believing whatever the church and their hapless families teach them. Only careful thought and questioning of the mindless dogma they’ve been subjected to will save them from being led around all their lives, constantly fearful of an invisible man watching their every move.
Plus, if most of the world believes in god, why are so many children dying of starvation and why are so many people dying of AIDs? Why are there so many wars and conflicts the world over? Hmm… I wonder… maybe because belief in god doesn’t make you a good, happy person?
10. Look deep inside your heart. God is there.
I don’t have a god shaped hole in my life or my heart. I live a happy, honest life without false beliefs in Santa, gods, angels, leprechauns or fairies. I am not delusional. I have no need of regurgitated myths and superstitions. And I have no need to go around patronizing people who think differently than me with threats and cajoling pleas to force them to believe like I do. Funny how an amoral atheist can be so, well.. moral, isn’t it?
10. Look deep inside your heart. God is there.
Is that what’s causing those palpitations? Well, get it out, I don’t need a heart attack!
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Neece Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 4:15 am
LOL!
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“If you are ever stuck again with a moral dilemma, just ask your local priest, rabbi or equivalent. He’ll explain it all to you.”
This one I really like. That would explain why we should just ignore this guy ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4 ).
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Neece Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 4:17 am
Thanks for sharing that video, David. It was heartbreaking to watch. It’s one of the things I was referring to above and it really makes a strong case for being free of dogma and god.
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Mark is grasping at straws here and coming up short-ended.
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Neece Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 4:18 am
Definitely, James. But really, what do religious people have to keep them faithful besides these pathetic reasons?
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Nicely done, Neece. His “reasons” were shallow and simple-minded and, as you and most (if not all) of your readers know, rehashes of statements we’ve heard over and over that have been thoroughly rejected since before we were born.
On a side note, I’m so jealous that you get these kinds of emails to play with and I never do. LOL!
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Neece Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 4:20 am
Thanks so much, Dan. I’m sorry I got lucky with this one and you didn’t. Just pray and your golden emails and comments will come to you too! *(some restrictions apply)
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I share my answers to these:
1. Yes, I am sure YOUR god doesn’t exist. Furthermore, I’m willing to bet that if a god existed, I would be judged by not my beliefs, but by my actions.
2. Moral dilemmas? Your book doesn’t solve moral dilemmas, and actually poses more. Do you kill that pregnant woman working on a Sunday? Your religion has terrible morals at that.
3. No, I have not sinned. I have made mistakes, which aren’t the same thing. And indeed, I forgive myself for those mistakes that I’ve made. Knowing full well that they are mistakes, and I learn from them.
4. Yes, I can explain infinity. First example are mathematical sums and expressions. You see, when you work a lot with infinity, you get used to it, and quite frankly, can easily comprehend it. Believing in god doesn’t solve this either. I don’t see how you think so… god is infinite is he not? You therefore have not really done anything to explain it away.
5. Yes, I can. You seem to be missing the point. Natural selection doesn’t explain anything by itself. Natural selection drives evolution. The evolution theory as you are meaning it is a bunch of different theories combined into one. And make no mistake about it, it does indeed conflict with Bible theory (let’s not BS here and call it creationist theory). In reverse, I already know you don’t completely believe your religion, hence why you aren’t murdering people who work on Sundays. Also, in my opinion, monkeys are better than man.
6. No, it isn’t scary. And yes, I do think we just die. In reverse, you can’t possibly believe you get to live forever? That’s more scary, forever. Forever is enough time to get bored of everything and wish for your life to end. Hell, some people can’t even handle 20 years of it.
7. Nearly no other book in the world is as big as the Bible. Look, I’m not a moron, there are no codes. When a book has nearly every word in a language, I can come up with formulas to make any sentence combination possible. It’s pure BS to sit there and think, hey, I made a formula to make a sentence that highlighted a past event! It must have been a code to warn us or some such nonsense! The bible also contains many FAILED predictions. Furthermore, many of those “predictions” weren’t really predictions at all, they where past events written like they were predictions… In other words, they played you.
8. And the world today is full of religious kooks. Coincidence? I think not. I don’t see why your trying to fight for another Dark Ages, you know, when religion took over. In fact, the less religious a society is, the BETTER it is, in nearly every way. Including morally.
9. I hate to be cliche, but most of the world used to think the world was flat… On that note, there are many who never returned, so we don’t have to. Indeed, that number is increasing more and more. By the way, the world is quite split on what god to believe in (I got my list ready!):
The Jewish god, the Christian god, the Islamic god, the Bahai god, the Judaic god, the Zoroastrian god, the Vaishnavist god, the Shaivist god, the Shaktist god, Smartist god, the Sikhist god, the Pantheistic god, the Panentheistic god, and so forth.
10. Heart? Daft boy, the heart is just a symbol. The heart doesn’t contain any emotion or any actions. The brain contains all the emotions. It also controls imaginations and delusions. That’s where you’ll find god.
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Neece Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 4:22 am
Nice list, thanks, GMN.
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1. not only is it not worth groveling and begging, but are you Christians sure you’re backing right horse? Odin will be pissed that you believed in the wrong god.
2. Morality in not derived from any holy books. If it were, the holy books would all say roughly the same things. Instead, people choose their morality first then “interpret” their holy books to justify that morality. Moral dilemmas are complicated and require serious thought and hard work to resolve, which is why religion works so well for lazy thinkers. Can’t be bothered thinking about moral dilemmas and solving them yourself? Let someone else tell you what’s right and wrong. That way, you’re not responsible for your own morality.
3. Like Neece and others have said, I have made mistakes and bad choices, not sinned. As an adult, I take responsibility for those and accept the consequences. I’ll make other mistakes and bad choices in the future, but my goal is to use the lessons learned from past mistakes and not make those same mistakes and bad choices.
4. Infinity is not that difficult of a concept to grasp. Quantum mechanics is something that very few people really grasp, an only after years and years of study. Even then, we are just beginning to scratch the surface of knowledge there. However, neither of those has anything to do with whether any gods exist. Total non sequitur.
5. We don’t know everything about evolution, but we do know for a fact that evolution occurs, and we understand much of how it works. Natural selection couldn’t happen without evolution, so Mark’s argument there is utter nonsense. For the record, “missing link” is a worn out straw man argument-there are no missing links. Each and every organism that has ever lived, and that will ever live, is a link in the evolutionary chain. As Neece pointed out, we did not descend from monkeys, and saying that just points out how willfully ignorant you are of the truth. Only theists with their divinely inspired sense of superiority seem to consider themselves above other life forms. Are humans better than monkeys? Better at what, I say. Sure, we have the wheel, New York, wars and so on, but monkeys are perfectly adapted for their environment, and are usually better at climbing trees than humans. Fish are better at swimming and breathing water. Evolution is not about superiority, it’s about adapting to your environment.
6. I’ll let Neece’s answer stand for me. Hits it right on the head.
7. The bible does not contain any predictions, only vague ramblings that can be retro-fitted to events that happened after it was written, much the same as your horoscope is vague enough to be “accurate” to what happened to you today.
8. Another non-sequitur. A recent study showed that porn use was highest in those US states that are also considered the most religious, and lowest in the least religious states.
9. Five hundred years ago, most people believed the earth was flat and at the center of the universe, and that there were only four elements. Just because a majority of people believe something doesn’t make it true.
10. My heart is an internal organ for pumping blood. Looking inside it would involve major surgery, and 100% convinced that no gods are taking up residence there.
9.
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Neece Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 4:24 am
Excellent list, Antimattr. I agree wholeheartedly with you.
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Ten reasons to believe in god? Actually you’ve presented one list with the same ten conclusions: “I don’t know so it must be god.”
Plus a load of lovely fallacies. I hope I’m not being too mean…
1. Nope, but I am 99.9% sure since there’s no evidence to support a god. Or gods. Or Neece’s invisible pink unicorn who likes to help her bake. Ironically, there’s more proof for the IPU than god because we can eat the evidence. Besides, Pascal’s Wager is an appeal to… wait for it… consequences.
2. Oooh. Ask a priest. He’ll explain everything to you, then beg you not to say anything to the police afterward. That’s an appeal to authority and a logical fallacy in one religious burrito, there.
3. Sin? That’s a religious construct that means little more than a traffic violation. Unless you deny the holy spirit, and you don’t want to do that, buddy ’cause then you’d be committing the fallacy of appealing to consequences. Again.
4. Just because you can’t explain infinity just means you can’t. You’re not stupid, just ignorant, and that’s an argument from ignorance. Step away from your computer, mister.
5. Actually, yes I can. As far as people being misinformed, that’s just a pot calling the kettle black. See, natural selection totally explains man. What. You think we’re the pinnacle of evolution? Heee, that’s a hoot AND a holler! That ignorance thing makes you look pretty foolish, especially since you used the same fallacy twice in a row.
6. We’re wormfood, my friend. A billion years went by before you existed. A billion more will go by after you end. Besides, that’s a red herring fallacy called wishful thinking.
7. Hahahahaahahaha. Seriously? Did you know that most of those predictions were made after they already happened? Sure. And on several occasions, when we know when they were written, we can see that the prophecies were eerily correct until the past caught up with the present and then, like Sylvia Browne’s, the predictions started falling apart. Hehehe. Predictions. Bible. *snicker*
8. Wait, that’s not a reason to believe in god! That’s sort of a control issue thing. Or, more likely it’s another red herring called an appeal to fear! Or far less likely, maybe the world, in your view, is going to hell because that’s what your imaginary god actually wants… More violent porn all around!
9. Wishful thinking? An ad populum argument? An appeal to tradition, maybe? I’m just grasping at straws here… Kind of like you.
10. That’s not a reason either. That’s an appeal to emotion, wishful thinking and, well, just plain silly. We think with our brains, man!
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Neece Reply:
June 27th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Thanks for this Steve. You rock on with your bad self. I was going to name the logical fallacy but I’m not good with all of them yet. Excellent!
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for some great info on logical fallacies, check out http://www.skepticsfieldguide.net/. Theo Clark was interviewed on the latest podcast of The Skeptic Zone (a terrific Australian skeptic podcast), and mentioned that he and his father had put that site together.
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Neece Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I’ve been there. Thanks for reminding me of the site, Antimattr.
They have a small e-book you can get too.
They still don’t do the one thing I really want when it comes to logical fallacies. No one does it that I can find, and that is to tell you how to refute them.
Like if someone cherry-picks information and adds a non sequitor, what is a good response to get things back on track, or at least not get railroaded into Fallacy Land? Know what I mean?
In fact Theo Clark and his son or father, I’m not sure who was who, tell you how to use logical fallacies to your advantage to twist an argument, which I disagree with.
Then again I’m not a debater, obviously.
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Believe in anything don’t happen by force or fear.
With situation everyone learns.
There must be “believe from inside” and NOT “the believe because of some Reason”.
Believe in lord purifies mind, provide believe in self more and more and you feel Lord is there with you every time and in every situation.
Every one needs reason to smile and “secure side in life” , and i am happy believing in Lord and i feel i am safe in HIS hand.
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GMNightmare Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Learn to speak regularly so that you can actually convey something meaningful. Making witty little one liners is worthless and weak. Especially if you can’t even make a good enough syntax to be understandable.
Don’t believe in anything. Believing in anything is the sign of a weak mind. It is a weak commitment. Why believe when you should know? Believe from the inside? What kind of bull is that? You’re saying to make up whatever you want, and believe in it simply because you made it up. Worthless advice, and very much counterproductive to real knowledge.
Belief in a lord clouds the mind, thinking some imaginary friend is holding your hand throughout your life is nothing but a childish dream. It squanders your individuality and your progression through life, it takes away your independence and your self-reliance, it holds you back and keeps you from developing.
Everyone should learn to smile on their own, even when troubles are vast and many… everyone should learn to secure their life, and feel safe without having to have some imaginary keeper.
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LifePositiveWay Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Everyone have own view. When you talk about “imaginary keeper” let me say that “imaginary keeper”, Lord, have always provided me strength when i really need.
….You mentioned…”Belief in a lord clouds the mind”….I am happy with this….at least clouding mind with tension of betrayal and pains its better to let my mind cloud with “tender touch” of Lord. Being spiritual have made my life disciplined.
I again mention here is “believing in any thing by fear or force means nothing” You must believe from Inside in anything.
In short i can say that no matter how the situation is, i believe Lord will be there for me. Now i work and leave rest to result.
Faith in lord have provided me patience
And ya you have to “believe”…You have to believe in your capability.. you have to believe in your love, to keep love relation moving…You have to believe that you will pass in exam…
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GMNightmare Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Then I again say why believe when you should know? No, nothing comes from inside. All knowledge is external, we learn it through interaction with others and our environment. Absolutely no knowledge ever derives from inside us.
Never mind really, your imaginary keeper has never provided you strength when you really needed it. The thought of it made you stronger. You can in fact remove him from the picture and depend upon yourself and everything would be fine.
More disciplined? If you need an imaginary being to keep you in line, well, you a pretty poor specimen of human. Let me guess, without belief in god you’d be one to go on a murderous rampage stealing everything and taking candy from babies?
I don’t have to believe. I can know I’ll pass in an exam. I’ll study, know I know the material, and thus I’ll know I’ll pass the exam. I won’t believe in my love, I’ll trust my love, and I’ll actively pursue it because I won’t take for granted that it’s always there by believing in it. I know my capabilities, I don’t believe in them.
I have always had the strength, discipline, and happiness without believing in some god.
Belief is for the weak. Belief is the easiest and weakest commitment there is. Belief, is utterly useless.
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Neece Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Believe in yourself and your own abilities. Believe in the people around you when they have proven their worth.
But believing in an invisible sky daddy based on indoctrination is weak and harmful.
I also have no need for an invisible friend who is completely useless. I agree, mindless belief in myths and fairy tales is weak and easy and completely useless, if not downright dangerous.
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Neece Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I think reading your comment gave me a brain grammar aneurism. I’m not kidding.
From what I can make out, I totally disagree with you. Believing in fairy tales is silly and childish and certainly does not help in being a responsible adult.
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“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one”
– George Bernard Shaw
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Neece Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Thanks Charles, that’s a great quote.
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