Alias: GMNightmare
Name: Jesse
Date: 29 July 2009
Birth: 1988 C.E.
Gender: Male
In my beginning, I was born to both a new mother and new father. My birth was a rather large event to my extended family, for I was the very first great grandchild. As my mother’s family is very close, of course many made an appearance. Near birth, I was blessed and baptized by my great grandfather under Christianity.
Under such pretenses I assume many would suspect that I was raised under a very religious setting. This was luckily not the case. It is worth mentioning that my mother’s ancestors stem from a long line of clergy, and they are all fairly religious… And while my mother is also mildly religious, my family couldn’t seem to find a church that we fit into.
Sure, my family tried—I understand that we were almost sucked into Mormonism. In the end, the situation basically turned out to be a lax kind of religious attitude. There was definitely more church attending during my younger years, but we went less as time progressed. Both my parents worked difficult and long jobs, and Sunday just needed to be an actual day of rest… as well as spending time with their kids.
I vaguely remember somewhere around the age of 10 or so… well, actually quite clearly, a day dining at a restaurant. My parents posed a question, of what we (the kids) thought of hell. My personal response gave the more “good” you where in life the better you would live in heaven… Hell didn’t really exist to me even at this point in my life. My sibling’s response was far cruder; basically amounting to saying a certain relative of ours should go there.
At this point, my parents informed us that our great grandfather had done some “research” into it (Biblical studying hardly amounts to research) and came to the conclusion that hell didn’t really exist as a place. All hell basically amounted to was nothing, you died and that was it. Much like the atheist point of view of death in general actually. This certainly made more sense at the time to me than some torturous place.
A little time later would be about the time I entered a Christian summer camp. A fun place really, but only posed to delay my atheism, if it even could. The reason for Jesus’ existence was answered here, being the sacrifice to end all the sacrifices… I remember this being an epiphany at the time, although it would of course only pose more questions later.
Some more background information here would be helpful before I move on. My life has been quite an easygoing one. I’ve led a very happy life, with few problems or hindrances to bar my path. So when it came to going to church gatherings and this camp, it of course wouldn’t bring me more happiness or joy than I already had.
When your life is full of strife and sadness, a good break every week is a nice and happy moment. I, as said above, had no need for this. It all comes into focus, when comparing myself with the rest of the congregation. They treat these meetings as something that brings them more happiness. For me, I was just as happy there as I was at any other time. You could say I was immune to the “joys” of the church.
So back at the camp, there would be nightly fireside chats. Other kids would share their god stories… where a prayer would be answered, or they were helped out through harsh times. Out came another problem… I simply didn’t have any. I tended to doubt each story as well—typically not the story itself, but the intervention or actual act of god in it.
Perfectly reasonable actions were attributed to god. Even worse, the positive actions of others were explained away as simply god’s plan. These stories did not sit well with me. I would ask myself, “Why do these people believe those were acts of god? What acts then do come from god?” Let me tell you, mind tangling questions…
The only real answer that even starts to work is god controls them all: good or bad. You know, god tests you… There was a big flaw here, coming from my situation: why wasn’t god “testing” me? Why was I so much more blessed than anyone else? Two cases then: I didn’t need it, but then why would anybody need it? Or I take the more egotistical approach that I was special.
As much as people like to assume, I’m not quite as egotistical as I would seem. I did not like the notion that I was special and that everybody else wasn’t based upon god’s seemingly random will. Let’s face it as well; the Bible never really helps unless you know where to look… And of course, depending on where you look, you’ll get different answers.
Upon leaving the camp, I would of course revert to what I normally did during summers… Programming video games and debating online. The programming is relatively irrelevant; the debating on the other hand consisted of all topics including religious ones. They were all of course very intellectually stimulating; debating such things as parallel universes, dimensions, the meaning of life, and so forth.
From all the experiences compacted with time, I would eventually start to become nonreligious. Unfortunately I would still consider myself Christian for quite a number of years, although quite clearly my beliefs did not match the title. In fact, I hardly doubt my beliefs ever really matched the title. It still would not be until the start of my college years that I would come to the notion that I was not a Christian, and was indeed nonreligious.
I still had a belief in god at this time mind you. My view of god consisted of basically the god that is just there in everything. I would come to understand that my views aligned with that of Pantheism a little while later. Fairly word for word, and for never hearing about Pantheism before I was quite surprised.
Finding a religion that pretty much directly coincided with my beliefs gave me gumption. Eureka was the thought, but I knew what this meant in its entirety. Pantheism is very agnostic in its nature; it basically amounts to feeling that it’s true and I had come to this conclusion. In fact, Pantheism is akin to atheism, except with a belief in god… it’s one of the most basic yet at the same time advanced forms of theism. Thus, I felt far more aligned to atheism than Christianity at this point in time.
My questioning wouldn’t stop there. The fundamental question that made the difference was “Why do I believe what I believe?” Why? Just to feel good? Just to fit in? Was it just easier to explain to the masses? In a way, yes was the reply to all of those questions.
A belief in god still felt good. A belief in god still allowed me to fit in. A belief in god was easier to explain. None of those answers were intellectually sound. Why should I believe something with such weak convictions such as those? The answer of course is I shouldn’t—or not that I shouldn’t but that I didn’t want to.
Of course this didn’t happen that quickly or easily, but progressed over quite a large sum of time. But when everything was said and done, I had become an atheist. Let’s make certain, debate and rigorous pursuit of knowledge has never stopped this whole time. It indeed continues to this day. Thus, the story does not end there.
Oh no, we have only gotten to the atheism, the question of how I came to be gnostic still remains. This is very much a recent change, as in, barely a week before I wrote this. There is a very exact process into which I came upon this as well. It happens to center around my confrontations with none other than professed agnostics.
First, let us clarify. Atheism means you don’t have a belief in god. On the other hand, being agnostic simply says you think god is impossible to prove or disprove, or in other words that you don’t know. Now you can be an agnostic theist… or you can be an agnostic atheist. Not knowing while also not believing is a fluffy way of saying you don’t have a belief in god (but may have one later), thus atheist (currently). The majority of atheists are agnostic.
So here’s the issue: I run across a lot of posts by claimed agnostics that being in a religion or being atheist is both equally ignorant. That’s putting it nicely.Constantly having to say they are actually atheists themselves, becomes quite a hassle—also put nicely. Now most claimed agnostics (that aren’t theists) claim to be agnostics for two reasons… first are the negative stereotypes against atheism, and second being they just don’t understand the terms. The agnostics that I’m talking about here also happen to be incredibly egotistical to boot. Here’s the funny bit, they seemed to be gnostic about their agnosticism…
This brings us to the question, what is knowledge? Knowing does not mean truth; it means you regard it as true. Knowing is paradoxical in its nature, how can anything be known with exact certainty? It can’t, but for the sake of progress we have to start at some point.
I’ve argued against countless excuses for god. I’ve found fundamental flaws against any kind of omni-ability. I’ve argued against not only the existence but the uselessness of a creator. Essentially, I’ve argued if god cannot be known in this reality then god has no basis in this reality. I’ve even argued the word classification of the word god even.
All and all, perhaps it’s just more honest. I have found flaws and argued against all types of gods, how much more must it take to know? I’ve argued against the whole notion, reason, and existence of god… why can I not be certain there is no god?
And that, is my story of why I am a gnostic atheist.
Oh, yes, was this going to be added to the deconversion part of the site?
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Neece Reply:
July 7th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Hey GMN, it’s on the deconversion page, but not as a page in itself. I can change that though.
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Atheists and Gnostics are right in most of their thinking
It has been common among religious believers to look with misgiving to atheists and Gnostics, and to think that they are mistaken; however, in many instances the opposite is the truth; some religious beliefs are not just irrelevant, but baseless. It is unbelievable how myths and a religious fantasy have influenced human minds with more strength than reality!
Most people don’t dare to confront their religious doubts; they are afraid of abandoning the “certainty” of their convictions, and opt for the status quo. The “God” of main line traditions simply does not exist. I accepted the challenge of finding the One who may be recognized even by Gnostics and atheists, and came to the conclusion that God isn’t other than the Existence itself, “All-That-Is.” If something is there, that is God.
I invite you to look at the book “Christianity Reformed From ist Roots – A life centered in God.” This book most probably was not written for you, but it may be useful for some of your religious friends who still think that you are wrong and they are right. I am confident that reading the book would help them to be relieved of the illusion, as I did myself.
Distinguished philosophers and thinkers might give you an idea of this book—perhaps a generation ahead of time for most believers—(links below); or you might look at excerpts at Amazon.com.
Jairo Mejia, M. Psych., Santa Clara University
Retired Episcopal Priest
Carmel Valley, California
http://www.mbay.net/~jmejia/Grudzen.htm
http://www.mbay.net/~jmejia/Churcher.htm
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GMNightmare Reply:
August 1st, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Bloody spammer.
What, do you really think you’re tricking us?
First off, you don’t capitalize atheists. Second, Gnosticism is a religion, you therefore do not capitalize it if you mean it as a term of knowledge. Third, you can be gnostic in your belief of god, so therefore you must clarify by saying gnostic atheist. Fourth, there is only one tenant of an atheist, lacking a belief in god.
You obviously do not consider atheists or gnostic atheists right. Hence why you are still religious. You obviously do not agree with the points, and if you do, you are a complete fool for sitting there and believing even when you agree that god is illogical.
But let’s amount to your actions… did you comment on what was said? No, not at all. You are one of the worst kind of pricks, you sit there and give fake praise to promote some stupid books. No matter how “new thought” tries to obscure it, god is illogical. And those philosophers, generations behind atheists. Generations behind other believers even. In the end, they are arguing for Panentheism, but they are just too stupid to realize that it already exists, and for that matter that you do not have to be Christian to believe in god.
Next time, actually comment on what is said and make it relevant.
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I have a couple of questions that I would like answered, and you seem like the type to answer questions. First of all, what are your thoughts on supernatural phenomena (weird stuff people claim happens, i.e., someone’s ear being cut off, and growing back on)? Is it all just a big hoax? Secondly, I know that evolution details how the earth came to it’s present state, and the big bang, (do they still call it that?) started all that, but what could have caused the big bang? And how did whatever caused the big bang come into existence? As far as I know, science clearly states that nothing can be infinite, and all things have an end and a beginning. So, if nothing is infinite, than how did the universe get started? Wouldn’t something had to have caused time to exist first, something that wasn’t governed by time, and so couldn’t even be described by adjectives like infinite? I just have these questions, and no one can really answer them, except with some lame thing like “It just goes on and on”. And what does happen when we die? I know our bodies clearly decompose, we can see that much easily. But what about our consciousness? It seems to me that consciousness is somewhat of a mystery in and of itself. Scientists can make a body, and they can put blood and oxygen in it, but yet they can’t make it live? So, if a consciousness isn’t something like a body, something that decomposes, what happens when the consciousness dies? Does it really just cease to exist? I can’t even imagine not existing. It just seems so foreign, to not exist. Lastly, I don’t really get the term “gnostic atheist”. From what I’ve read, gnostics claim to “know” something, that other people don’t. So, if you’re a gnostic atheist, does that just mean that you “know” hands down, that there is not, and has never been, any kind of god?
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Johnny Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I’m sure GMN will have a response; but I just feel the desire to chime in.
Do you have an actual documented example of something you would consider supernatural phenomena? Unless there is documented studies, physical evidence, or repeatable through scientific testing – its pretty much a big hoax.
Huge misconception here. Evolution DOES NOT explain the Big Bang and/or Abiogenesis — here’s a post with three short videos to help understand the difference.
Science does not know all the details of the Big Bang and the singularity; but we know more and more all the time. Instead of assigning supernatural properties to it, science continues to seek answers; science knows it doesn’t have all the answers, but is doing everything possible to answer as many questions as it can.
We don’t know. But all evidence indicates that nothing happens. Consciousness ceases to exist when the brain dies. We have no evidence of something ‘on the other side’ – no one has come back to tell us or prove to us that ‘the other side’ exists. Thus the easiest, and most logical explanation is that there is no ‘other side.’
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GMNightmare Reply:
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Ah, now that is a respectful post. Thank you. I’ve actually been meaning to rewrite my article to make it a little less aggressive and explain some more, so answering your questions will help guide that.
Q.1) Supernatural phenomena
I’ll cover aspects of ghosts and such first. Most of these, mysterious circumstances are just that, mysterious. People are quick to jump to conclusions, that this weird thing they couldn’t explain must be a ghost. Quite often than not, it’s just their mind jumping to conclusions, natural instincts (*mind speak* hey hey, I heard a noise, something might be there that could eat us and it’s dark and I can’t see very well, run!) If you don’t know what caused it, you can’t then claim it to be a ghost did it. I mean, it was just claimed you don’t know!
And now we’ll cover medical miracles. I have never seen evidence of one. Many people like to claim, oh, they survived a deadly disease it’s a miracle, but that makes no sense. Some people do make it past deadly diseases, by coincidence or luck. There are always survivors, people do survive cancer naturally to a small percentage. Being in that small percentage is nothing magical.
And what about all the people who didn’t? Does god just choose who he wants to save from illness if this is what really happened? Here’s the real question in regard to this: why won’t god heal amputees? There has never been a case of an amputee being healed, now that would be a real miracle. There is a whole website completely devoted to that question, just type it into google.
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Q.2) Evolution
I want to quickly say something over this, just in case we have a misconception here. Evolution only says what is happening to life, it doesn’t explain how life originated. Abiogenesis and other theories like that cover how life originated from chemical cocktails.
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Now I’m going to jumble up your questions a bit to make them easier to answer, they build upon one another.
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Q.3) “Science cleary states that nothing can be infinite, and all things have a beginning”
I’m sorry to say, but science does not say that. Okay, I’m not really sorry, but nowhere does science actually say that. Now I’m going to cover some advanced thinking here, so try to stay with me here:
Space is infinite? No. Although it’s commonly said to, what is space? Nothing. Space = nothing, you can’t have infinite of something that doesn’t exist. And this brings us to what is really said:
There is a finite amount of energy in the universe. There is a finite amount of stuff, in an unbound container. god breaks this, as god isn’t nothing, he must be stuff, and it’s claimed he is everywhere in the unbound container.
Yeah, that unbound container can be tricky concept. But truthfully, we really don’t know if it’s unbound or not, because we haven’t been there… Does space somehow bend back into itself? We really don’t know. Yeah, it can be hard to fathom that space can just continue on forever, but it’s ridiculous to say that some magical being exists everywhere (doesn’t that just make it worse?)
And, energy does not have a beginning. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. This is one of the primary laws of the universe. It may change forms, but it’ll always be there and can be assumed following all evidence always has. Now we’re going to use this in the following questions…
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Q.4) Causer of the Big Bang
The cause of the Big Bang was a bunch of energy, compressed greatly. The energy then went kabooie and expanded out. That’s what caused it, the energy that as I had said, is naturally believed to have always existed and always will.
Beyond that, we do not really no. Using the above knowledge, we could say it has just always liked to repeat the course, but can we ever be 100% sure? Not really.
But remember what I said about supernatural occurrences with ghosts? Claiming we don’t know, then saying god did it… it was just claimed you don’t know!
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Q.5) Time
Time doesn’t actually exist how you think of it. Time is only a measurement, an illusion because you remember what actions you’ve previously taken. It measures decay… and it’s completely arbitrary (IE, you could consider 2.5 seconds to be 1 second). It’s relative, due to decay being affected by the speed of particles.
There was no start of time, time doesn’t really exist. Just like a gallon doesn’t really exist, it’s nothing more than a tool to help manage our life and share information.
So we may like to measure our lives in our notion of time. And for us, yes, we have a beginning and end. But as I said earlier, pure energy does not have those constraints. So if you were looking for something not constrained by “time” as it where, energy is it.
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Q.6) Consciousness
Very much controlled by physical reactions in the brain. I give you diseases like alzheimers. Physical damage damages our consciousness, it is very much tied down. And yes, we’ve as a species developed some marvelous consciousnesses, and we still have very much to learn about.
But as I like to keep saying, claiming knowledge because we lack knowledge… is baseless. Creating life took billions upon billions of years, it’s completely understandable that we can’t replicate it in a lab over an incredibly short period of time when we don’t even know that much about it!
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Q.7) Existing
Of course you can’t imagine not existing, your existing. It’s rather a little silly, not that I haven’t tried mind you. Just think about before you were born. Boom, there you go. You know you didn’t exist before you were born, no pain or hardships right? Besides, existing forever would get really boring after a trillion years or so. Hell, some can’t even last 100 without killing themselves off.
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Q.8) Gnostic atheism
“So, if you’re a gnostic atheist, does that just mean that you “know” hands down, that there is not, and has never been, any kind of god?”
Yes. And I quote from my article:
The moment you define the term god, is the moment I’ll pick it apart.
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This is my reasoning behind the “science clearly states that nothing can be infinite, and all things have a beginning”: http://www.allaboutscience.org/second-law-of-thermodynamics.htm
I also have a couple of other questions that I thought of.
What is your opinion of free will? I saw another post on some other website that stated that there was no free will at all, and that our actions are all predetermined by previous events in our life, and that we can’t really ever choose something at random, that it will always be somehow predetermined by preexisting conditions. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
Also, you say in your post that your great grandfather had come to the conclusion that there was no hell. I’ve read a little bit of the bible, and from what I’ve read, it seems like it says there is. I realize you don’t believe any of this, but I just am kinda miffed that your great grandfather thought that the bible didn’t say there was a hell.
What is your explanation of morality? Christians claim that most all of it stems from the bible, and that’s really the only thing I can think of that started it, aside from it being hardwired into our brains. I know that a lot of things are morally relative, i.e., adultery, some people think it’s morally wrong, and others think it’s not. But what about things like murder? The only people I can think of who think that something like that is morally ok, are cannibals, and you could hardly call them (for lack of a better word) civilized.
And what about Jesus? I personally think there are enough non-biblical references to prove that he did exist. So, assuming he did exist, what exactly was he? He was either a complete nutjob, a cunning liar, or what he said he was; god. He is considered to have some of the wisest teachings of any philosopher, so how could a complete nutjob be so sane in one area, and yet completely wacky in another? If he was a liar, then he was clearly an idiot, because he didn’t get himself anywhere by letting a lot of people think he was god, and not trying to get anything out of it, and then getting himself killed without even putting up a fight. If he really was god, then it makes a little sense, except for the god part. Also, what was so special about him, that made his religion live on, and grow to an enormous size, when there were (and still are) other people who claim they are god. What is it about christianity that has caused it to grow so large? I know people want answers, but why not go muslim, or buddhist? I know some people do, but it seems like christianity is the most popular, and yet, at the same time, the religion that gets the most flack. How is it that it can still be so huge, after having so many people try to destroy it? Heck, you’d think it would have died with it’s founder, after being so heavily stepped on by the roman empire.
That’s most of what I have for now, I’ll probably come up with some more questions in the middle of the night. (They always seem to pop up around midnight…)
Thank you for answering my other questions, despite all confusing paradoxes and “advanced thinking”. (I don’t quite understand it all, it’s a little hard to wrap the brain around)
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GMNightmare Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:00 am
Little tired, we’ll see how this post goes.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not state that unfortunately. What is really sad, is how much people don’t understand that law, it is used for anything and everything typically just to back up any random point like it actually works. I blame both sides.
The law says ONE thing, that in a CLOSED system, energy remains the same and attempts to reach equilibrium. AND THAT IS IT. The universe, is not a closed system, as was just said, we do not know the bounds. Furthermore, it says nothing about things having to have a beginning. Your source is wrong, there is no such thing as “unusable” energy. The universe is not losing energy. Furthermore, space does not have a temperature, it’s nothing remember? Therefore, in abstract of things, the universe as a whole IS ALWAYS at equilibrium as it where.
And your source, by the way, isn’t actually a good science website. It’s a religious website in disguise… don’t know if you knew that or not.
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Q.1) Hell
In regards to my story, I stated hell doesn’t exist as a place, hell still existed. Old translations using the original words, context, and actually reading the quotes brings this about. Basically, that hell is basically the same as how an nonbeliever says happens, that you just die and cease existence. You can easily find many of your fellow believers by searching google for “there is no hell in the bible”.
It’s actually fairly common, as it goes.
Of course, it’s still ridiculous, but much less so.
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Q.2) Free will
A tough one. I say no. It’s determinism, and you can look it up if you wish. Just think, have you ever really done something at random? And if you did it, did you just do it because you thought it was completely random? You see what I mean? You open the fridge, pick either apple or orange juice… why those? That’s all you have. You pick orange juice. Why? You craved it, it was less full, it was more full, it was closer, sounded better at the moment… there is always a reason… and all your reasons, come from previous experiences and so forth.
However, I’m open to change. That is not exactly very likely though. Do you have any case were you can truly say is random? The only potential, is in quantum physics. It’s been hypothesized that there is completely random behavior there, but it’s still a fledgling area and nothing is for sure yet.
Make sure to note, that laws are not affected by such talk at all.
Religion doesn’t solve any of this at all. “You have free will because god said so” is rubbish. Does god have free will? And do you really have free will, if god knew everything you would do before you were created, and created you anyways… therefore you were created to do everything god knew you would do. Supposedly god intervenes sometimes too, isn’t this breaking free will? Religion really likes to trip itself up in this regard. A person asking you a question with a loaded gun to your head who will shoot if you answer wrong really isn’t giving free will anyways (gun being hell).
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Q.3) Morality
First you forgot one form of murder, war. War is nothing but group murder. And it’s considered acceptable only because it’s authorized by governing agents.
Morality comes from within us. Yes, a lot of it has been evolved, it is beneficial after all in the wild to work as a group. Morality can genuinely just come from society. You are taught a lot of it depending upon society. What about all the other societies that don’t have the bible? All the other religions who don’t use the bible? All of it? And how about before the bible?
Helping others makes me happy (of course not always). Doing good feels good, it feels right… it’s just the right thing to do. And I do it, because it’s the right thing to do, and I should do the right thing. Why in the world do I need to be threatened with eternal punishment in order to do what is right?
Really, the bible is a very poor excuse for giving moral guidelines. Homosexual hatred, subjugating women, mutilating genitals, amputating hands, killing all nonbelievers… Are we reading the same book here? But you ignore those parts right? Or they aren’t valid? And how do you decree them to not be? How do you go about claiming that killing nonbelievers isn’t correct?
If you can determine what was false and not authentic (or not moral or however you want to put it) from the Bible, what use do you have of the Bible? It amounts to saying, “I know what god really intends” and if you already know what god intends, there is no purpose to the Bible in this regard.
Really, I question why a bible is ever really needed, with an omnipotent god always on hand to answer questions that are assured not to be mucked up by a bunch of corrupt humans.
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Q.4) Jesus
“I personally think there are enough non-biblical references to prove that he did exist.”
Sorry, but I deny that claim. There is nothing proving the existence of this Jesus you speak of. Non-biblical references? You mean people who’ve quoted the Bible? There isn’t even untampered evidence of his execution in records! No two chapters in the bible even seem to give the same thing (especially in regards to what happened after his death). In fact, the evidence is great that the bible just copies a bunch of other stories, I’ll use this post as reference to many of them:
http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/2009/11/30/what-other-deities-were-born-on-jesus-birthday/
I question why people can’t get the interpretations to agree with each other. So many sects, and they all think the bible says this or that, or that part is wrong or this… Especially when supposedly they should be able to ask god to give them answers, yet even these answers they get conflict with others who ask.
But that is for a much, much longer story.
I consider many of his teachings useless outside of blind faith and religion. That’s assuming he really said all those words.
Didn’t get anything out of lying? Oh hell yes he did. Unsurmountable fame and glory, a whole following the world over, his ideology spread indefinitely. That is a lot, if he was a liar. In fact, he gained far more than any other person in history.
But you miss a few others. What if there was a bunch of multiple people. Or what if there was an actual person, but the bible authors wrote it wrong. I mean, none of the bible authors even lived while Jesus was supposedly alive.
What if, he was lying about some things and telling truth in others? Or if he really thought he was telling the truth? Really, there are tons of possibilities, not so few as you pointed out. Any combination from above could be it too.
I don’t even consider his words to be better than Buddhas’, Confucius’, or even Ghandi’s.
How does this make sense:
god impregnated a virgin in order to be born as a godman, just so he could sacrifice himself to himself to erase sins he put into place, and he had to do this because his existing laws were too harsh and nobody could follow them, and he didn’t do anything even though he foresaw this happening with his omniscience… and so on and so forth.
And that is what he was claiming. Oh wait, did you say that didn’t make sense? Sorry, getting far to late to do this. Ahem, anyways…
Here’s why Christianity spread. It promises eternal reward, and threatens eternal punishment otherwise, and all you supposedly have to do is believe. No action required, just believe. The same answer is for why it still exists, except it also feels good to not be in control, that something is always looking out for you. And there is the whole thing that religion is often passed down between parents and children. And really, people don’t look elsewhere. How many Christians have even tried other religions? Truly?
Because to my knowledge, the number is incredibly low.
This is a really long discussion on history and psychology, I think this response will be suitable for the moment, if you want me to expand you can just ask me to do so.
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These questions were much harder, they were far more subjective, bigger, and open ended. I think I’m satisfied with my answers with it being this late at night, but I might of come off a little too aggressive, sorry about that.
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Johnny Reply:
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
GMN has covered much of the same, but since I feel involved in this exchange, and just for some additional perspective, here’s my response:
I want to vehemently point out that AllAboutScience.org is NOT an objective, reliable, or reputable source for scientific information. It is a creationist propaganda site.
The word ‘hell’ is found 14 times in the Bible (only in the NT); and 12 of the occurrences are in the teachings of Jesus. In the original Greek version, the word that was eventually translated to hell was gehenna. Gehenna is an actual geographical location, a ravine on the south side of the city of Jerusalem. From Rob Bell’s explanation: “This valley was the site over the years of many violent and horrible deaths, and it came to be viewed as cursed. By Jesus’ day it had become the town dump. Garbage, trash, wild animals fighting over scraps of food, a fire burning-a place of waste and destruction. Some referred to it as the place with the gnashing of teeth where the fire never dies. So when Jesus uses gehenna, it is loaded with meaning and visual power-everybody knew what he was talking about.”
Morality at its deepest point really is driven by evolution. As a species we realized that to propagate and ensure the survival of our species, we couldn’t constantly murder each other. Several studies have focused on this, and how ‘normal’ people have a hardwired loyalty to their kin and tribe. Also numerous studies have found many other animals who have a sense of morality. The fact that we are self aware has allowed us to shape our morality further based on what is acceptable by society; this is easily illustrated by looking at the changes in moral acceptance for various things throughout history.
Additionally, a cursory look at the Bible finds many deeds deemed right, just, or moral that we would abhor today. Thus further illustrating that our society is and should be far more influential on our morality than a centuries old book.
Many, if not most of the non-biblical references have been proved fraudulent, or are highly contested. Jewish apocalyptic prophets were fairly common in that era, so its quite possible that one named Yeshua existed; but there is no concrete historical evidence of the existence of this particular one.
Lord, Liar, or Lunatic? Love it when CS Lewis gets pulls out. This really is a logical fallacy of sorts: “A does not equal B, and A does not equal C, so I conclude that A must equal D.” Never mind considering E through Z, or a number of other possibilities.
Also, how do we know that is was Jesus who said all those things the Bible claims he said. The gospels were not even started until almost 60 years after he died. Plus they have been copied, tweaked, translated, and modified for almost 2000 years since. Its like the worst game of telephone ever.
It really was just one of dozens of Jewish schisms, and only barely took root because Paul/Saul pushed it, and opened it to gentiles (prior to that only Jews were allowed). It probably would have faded to obscurity and died if not for Constantine.
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Yes, I would agree with GMN that vast majority of Christians have not tried other religions. They try various “forms” or “denominations” of Christianity that they call “not Christian” because it isn’t their “brand”. Going from Baptist to Catholic to Jehovah’s Witness to Mormon isn’t “trying other religions”, if that happens to come up as an example.
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