Heaving Dead Cats » family

A Thought Experiment With Your Religious Friends

Neece — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 02:41:49 +0000

I am reading several books right now (I have them all listed in the left sidebar). One is called The God Virus and I just started it the other day. On page 18, Darrel W. Ray describes an experiment. I think I’ve heard of it before, but I thought I’d share it with you because it shows how religion attacks the critical thinking skills of the mind. As Mr. Ray says, it leaves the skill intact for other religions but disables critical thinking about one’s own religion. It really is like a virus of the mind.

Here’s the experiment as explained in the book:

You have a serious conversation with a deeply christian friend. Your friend is intelligent, well educated and knowledgeable. You agree to record the session. The topic is islam. During the session, you discuss that mohammed was a self-appointed prophet and that he claimed he talked to allah and the angels. He wrote a book that he claimed was infallible, and he flew from Jerusalem to heaven on a horse.

During the conversation, you agree that mohammed was probably delusional to think he could talk to god. You agree that the koran was clearly written by mohammed and not allah. It is ludicrous for him to claim that he is the last prophet and that all others are false. Neither you nor your friend can believe that he flew to heaven, let alone on a horse. It all sounds too crazy, and you both agree it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you say that muslims did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that christianity is the true religion.

Over the next few days, you transcribe the recording onto paper. Then you change all references to mohammed and make them jesus. Now the document reads something like this:

During the conversation, you both agree that jesus was probably delusional to think he could talk to jehovah. The bible was clearly written by men and not jehovah. You both agree it is ludicrous for jesus to claim that he is the last prophet and that all later ones are false. Neither of you can believe that he rose from the dead, nor flew to heaven. It all sounds too crazy, and it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you both agree that christians did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that islam is the true religion.

Now, tell your friend, “I made a transcript of our conversation about islam and would like to go over it with you.” As you read it, watch her reaction. How does she respond to each statement? How soon does she get defensive? How quickly does she start making elaborate arguments that have no more factual basis than the first conversation? If you persist in this line of parallel reasoning, how long before she gets angry or breaks off the conversation? Could this conversation damage your friendship?

You can do this experiment with other prophetic religions. For example, substitute Joseph Smith for mormonism or moses for judaism.

Have you ever tried an experiment like this? Have you ever questioned your friend’s religion? Did it damage your friendship? Or a family member? Does that person still talk to you? How far did your religious friend go to make excuses and explain away his religion in the face of reality?

The Secret Divides Part 2

Neece — Thu, 14 Jan 2010 06:40:16 +0000

The other day I wrote about a woman named Ruth who emailed me asking for some advice. Ruth’s sister Esther (not their real names for their privacy) had been introduced to The Secret by her husband and now avoided Ruth because she said she is toxic. The first post is called The Secret Divides and I gave my initial opinion, then asked Ruth for some clarification, as well as asked you for your take on the situation.

Ruth said the following:

My sister and I are 5 years apart, she is in her late 30s I am in my early 30s. We live on opposite sides of the country.

[Esther and I] talked on Christmas – but only if I agreed to be play nice. We did exchange gifts. As long as I am willing to play along, she will speak to me – but it is obviously strained and only to make my mom happy. I have always had issues with hypocrisy or injustice – and I hate the fact that she doesn’t have the respect for me and my feelings that she expects for herself – but I try.

Is there anything within the teachings that I can use to help her see my even a tiny bit of the pain that we feel when she says Dad, Grandma or I got what we asked for? I don’t want to destroy her belief – she has a right to it and I can respect that – as hard as it is for me to refrain from argument.

I am not the kind to sit and let people wallow in ignorance. I take serious exception when someone comes to a conclusion based on erroneous fact or assumption – that is my job. It is my job to present evidence and arguments and win. I can’t do that here – and that alone throws me so off balance I am unsure how to proceed.

I have been thinking about this for 2 days. I’m afraid I can’t really give Ruth what she’s after. I don’t have a copy of The Secret but I am quite familiar with the law of attraction as I spelled out awhile ago in a post called The Law of Attraction, and the Secret, are Bullshit. For your convenience, here are the basic rules for the law of attraction again:

Thoughts have an energy that attracts like energy (sometimes borrowed from Quantum Mechanics, minus any evidence). You must control this energy by practicing four things:

Know what you want.
Ask the universe for it.
Feel and behave as if the object of your desire is already with you, or is on its way to you.
Be open to receiving it.

Of course, if you think negative thoughts, the universe will manifest those negative thoughts in your life as well. So you must think positively at all times so that the universe will manifest all of your desires.

You might notice a few things when you read over the basic concept. Namely, the narcissistic and egocentric worldview, devoid of thinking about the needs and desires of our fellow man. The whole universe magically follows your every thought, tallies them up and does your bidding if you concentrate those thoughts. So the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth, the universe revolves around YOU. It’s sort of like having your own personal genie or god.

Where in all of this can you find compassion for our fellow man? Nowhere, especially if those less knowledgeable about the petty workings of this busybody universe are normal humans who worry and have negative thoughts. Whatever misfortune befalls those poor saps had it coming to them. That is an extremely harmful worldview, not to mention devoid of reality, common sense and compassion.

So Ruth is feeling the full sting of The Secret. Her sister has deemed her toxic because she has had physical problems since she was in her early teens. According to Esther, Ruth has attracted her ailments to her, that she asked to be sick.

This is the farthest concept from empathy I can think of when it comes to someone who is suffering. Instead of showing compassion for her sister, she avoids her, presumably to avoid the magical negative vibes. That’s pretty heartless and uncaring.

So how can Ruth get through to someone who is so cold and self-centered? Esther demands that Ruth play nice, but does she do the same? Esther can make the universe bend to her will, yet she can’t show compassion to her own sister who has health problems, that Ruth’s real-life situation makes her toxic? It has nothing to do with anything based in reality. A book tells her to avoid the negative so she disposes of her sister.

There’s just no way to reason with, or appeal to the emotions of, someone who is willing to do that for her own gain through the manipulation of the universe through her thoughts. It’s self-serving. It’s a belief that is extremely appealing, and easy to confirm whenever the slightest positive thing happens. And if something negative happens, it’s easy to make excuses and use that as a confirmation as well. Cherry-picking extraordinaire!

You can’t make people see the world the way you do. We are all in our own head in that sense. While Ruth can try to gently win her sister over and show through example that life is full of happy and sad, negative and positive, ups and downs, and it’s what you make of it all, well, maybe someday she might change her mind. But Esther seems to have embraced this magical thinking at any cost.

And when you have a false belief based on nothing but a silly book (ahem, religion, anyone?), people who don’t believe the same way are actually a threat to you. They threaten your constructed worldview with facts, reality and conflicting evidence. You are in danger of your belief system falling like a house of cards. It seems like it’s in your best interest to avoid or attack those “others”, even if they are family.

Well, actually it’s in your best interest to seek out differing philosophical perspectives, ask a lot of questions, read and study real science and the actual workings of the universe. The real world is so achingly beautiful. It’s so fascinating and complex. We understand but a small drop in the bucket of nature. There is so much out there that is real and true and interesting and exciting. Why do people feel the need to search for a supernatural answer? That is so lazy. Nature itself will blow your mind if you observe it. There is so much to learn. And it’s all natural. No accountant genies or gods needed.

I have to say a few more things. In talking this over with my friend and my husband, we all agreed that if our sister treated us like Esther, we would probably take a cue from her and think it was a good idea to avoid her for awhile. Why try to have a relationship with someone who doesn’t want one in return? I know, that’s not how we are raised in society. But in my life, my friends and husband are much more important to me than my blood relatives who are all crazy, dysfunctional and dare I say it, toxic. I make my own family with great friends and my husband. True empathy, affection, love and respect are more important to me than similar genes and a childhood history together. But that’s not for everyone.

I also have to say that my opinions are probably a bit more pragmatic and less optimistic than other people might have. If you have differing opinions for Ruth on her situation, please feel free to comment. Or if you want, you can email me privately and I’ll forward it on to Ruth. Also feel free to share any experiences you’ve had with law of attraction. It might be helpful.

The Secret Divides

Neece — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 22:05:08 +0000

As you may know, I make no bones in saying books like The Secret and their ilk are complete bullshit. I wrote about it awhile ago – The Law of Attraction, and the Secret, are Bullshit. Beyond the bullshit I have found them to be harmful if swallowed. If you believe what the book says, you will have a distorted worldview. This can be extremely detrimental to your own thought processes, and as you will see below, can also skew how you look at someone who is in an unfortunate situation.

For example, let’s say you believe that your thoughts dictate what will come to you. Then someone steals your wallet while you’re at the grocery store. According to The Secret, you brought that negative event to you by worrying and thinking negative thoughts. Because you were afraid of having your wallet stolen, you worried about it in the back of your mind, and that made that guy behind you decide to run up and steal it. Wow! You are so powerful! The universe listens to your thoughts and acts upon them, even when you aren’t paying attention!

In this fantasy world, the universe is a busy-body accountant, tallying your thoughts and then scheduling events to correspond. Ridiculous!

So wow, what would happen if you really focused your attention? What would happen if you got rid of all of your negative thoughts (not humanly possible or healthy) and wished for only good things? Perfect health? Wealth? A perfect spouse? Sure, why not! If you can dream it, you can make it happen. (cough cough BULLSHIT!!)

Of course, here’s the catch. It doesn’t happen overnight. In fact, it might be years and years of wishful thinking before something comes true. (Coincidence?!) Oh, and most likely you actually DID things to make it finally happen. Maybe you made decisions and took actions that led to you finally acheiving your dream.

But that’s not magic. The universe doesn’t work the way The Secret says it does. If it did, my life would be very different because of the power of my thoughts.

What do I think about a lot? Well, actually even though I’m a rather happy atheist (with a heart of gold), I tend to worry. I often worry about Butch (my awesome husband) when he drives to and from work. I’m worried he’ll get in an accident. Since we moved to West Virginia the threat of a deer running in front of him has increased drastically than when we lived in Florida. Plus now we have snow and ice instead of just rain and other bad drivers texting and talking on their cell phones. But you know what? My thoughts DO NOT LEAVE MY HEAD unless I speak them, write them down or act upon them.

In 5 years of worrying, Butch has never been in an accident. Could he get in one tomorrow? Yes. But that would be a coincidence, not magic. See? It’s nonsense.

One of the most insidious and hateful parts of the Secret is the idea that people who are in a bad situation made it happen with their negative thoughts. So if a woman gets raped on her way home from work one day, she is at fault because she had negative thoughts and worries that attracted the negative energy and therefore the attack on her.

That kind of thinking is hateful and evil. Unfortunately, I can tell you, once you believe such a baseless lie, it can really get stuck in your head. I still have to remind myself when I worry about something or think a negative thought that the thought doesn’t leave my head and the universe is not keeping track of them. (By the way, if you know of a way to stop worrying, let me know)

This all leads me to Ruth (not her real name. If you have a list of cool names that I can use for when people send me emails that they then let me post anonymously, let me know! Maybe I should use biblical names. How funny would that be? I went back and changed her name to Ruth… )

Anyway, Ruth sent me an email asking for my advice and assistance. She wrote the following:

I was reading through your discussion of ‘the secret’ and need some help. I see you said you have experience with the lie of attraction, and now reject it. My sister is lost to me because I am a toxic influence in her life. I am crushed, and she is ambivalent. I would rather she hate me, at least then I would exist. How can I make her see how much this hurts? That I miss and love her, that her beliefs insult and degrade me? That it is painful when I read that she thinks my chronic debilitating illness is my own fault and I was asking for it through negative thoughts? Is there anything I can do? Do you know of any other resources I can turn to? Any help is truly appreciated!

I asked Ruth if I could post this question to you, my wonderful readers, because maybe you would have some great advice or thoughts to help too. I haven’t answered her yet because I have to say, my first thoughts were kind of negative about her situation. So what I did was send a follow-up list of questions to her to get more information. I’ll let you know when she answers.

Unfortunately when someone wants to believe, and fully accepts the bullshit of the law of attraction or other psuedo-science, they can be just as dogmatic as a True Believer of religion. They want to believe. They feel the need to believe. And anything that gets in the way of those beliefs must be discarded.

It goes something like this. Ruth’s sister is looking for an easy fix. She buys The Secret, reads it and believes it. After that, she will cherry-pick her experiences and memories to support the law of attraction working in her life, and conveniently ignore all the evidence that says the universe follows natural laws and is otherwise random. Then it becomes a dogmatic belief. If Ruth disagrees, and is ill, then of course her sister will assume she’s toxic and bringing in bad vibes. The book has told her that Ruth made herself ill. Ruth has to be avoided. The Secret, in this situation, divides families.

Unfortunately when someone is dogmatic, in my experience there’s no getting through to them, at least not in the short term. My initial advice to Ruth, before I get more information, is the following:

You can’t make someone behave and think the way you want them to. The best advice I can give at this point is simply to live your life as best you can. Don’t try to talk to her about the law of attraction. It’s rare to get through to someone who believes something completely. You will only drive them away because when you threaten their belief system, the easiest way for them to deal with the conflict is to get rid of you, as opposed to changing their worldview.

Your best bet is to show by example. Take care of yourself, be realistic and try to make the best of your personal situation (your illness), and reach out to her if she lets you. But when you reach out to her, make it benign and non-confrontational.

Of course, the other side of the situation is a bit less pleasant. If your sister is willing to discard you so easily over the lies written in a mindless book, perhaps that’s something to think about. Maybe for right now, she’s the one who’s being toxic? But that’s just a thought. I really don’t have enough information about the situation to know.

That being said, I think you have to move on, take care of yourself, make the best of your situation, and wait it out. Occasionally reach out with a non-confrontational hello. Don’t talk about the law of attraction, your illness, or how you are hurt by her actions. Keep it friendly and avoid inflammatory issues.

Maybe things will change. Maybe they won’t, but at least you’re living your life to the best of your ability and finding happiness where you can. That’s all any of us can do.

So if you would like to share some thoughts with Ruth, feel free to comment. I will let you know when she answers my questions. (edit: see below for a link to part 2)

Advice For Freethinking Kids?

Neece — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:33:19 +0000

The other day I got an email from an atheist couple who have two kids, one 9 and one 10. They asked me for information regarding websites or literature that might deal with “god pressure” for kids at school. This would be the 4th and 5th grade. Apparently kids at their school are proselytizing and mocking these 2 kids for not believing.

The parents don’t want their kids to feel like freaks and also want to help them counter the exasperated ‘you don’t believe in god!’ remarks. Sam, the father, admits that it can be lonely to not believe in god sometimes. I understand. I feel that way too, although not as much as before I belonged to Morgantown Atheists.

Diane, the mother, says they are open to ideas and suggestions. She says they have friends who aren’t religious but still believe in god. It’s not the same thing.

Seeing as how only about 10% of the population would go so far as to actually use the dreaded A-word, it can be isolating to be godless in a sea of believers. As I’ve mentioned, I still keep my atheism to myself when around Butch’s family. Some of them know we’re atheists but it’s never been brought up or mentioned. This means that a huge part of what I spend my time thinking about and being an activist over can’t be talked about when I spend time with others. It’s kind of lonely, in a way.

For Sam and Diane, I suggested they join a local atheist/humanist/freethinker group to get some community support. There’s nothing like simply hanging out with like-minded people to feel more connected. In my personal experience, the benefits of belonging to a local organization are numerous. I have felt much happier since joining. Just knowing there are others who think like me is a great relief, in a way.

I know, many atheists are loners and not into joining. I used to think I was like that too. Then I realized I am just picky. I don’t want to belong to a group that has wildly different values than me. But having a coffee and talking to someone who is also a godless heathen is, well, liberating and intellectually stimulating.

I have to say something now regarding children and atheism. One of my friends, I think it was Dan, recently commented ( I can’t remember if it was here on HDC or Facebook. And I think it was Dan… or Steve. I’m sorry, my friends, I am not positive. Please feel free to correct me) about a conversation he had with his 9 year old daughter. She asked her dad about god. Dan gave a good answer about what god is, and said something along the lines of that’s how a lot of people believe. His daughter asked him what he believed, if he believed in god. Dan explained he is an atheist and that no, he doesn’t. Then he asked her what she thought about god. She said the smartest, most amazing thing, which told me he’s a wonderful dad. She said, “I think I’m too young to decide.”

What that tells me is that Dan is raising his daughter, not to be an atheist, but to think for herself. I think the most important thing you can ever do for a child is to teach them critical thinking. Let them figure things out for themselves. Let them reason and make mistakes. Teach them how to think. Not what to believe.

I’m still thinking about what to tell Sam and Diane’s kids, in how to deal with other kids who are brainwashed with religion already. Do you have any suggestions, websites, or books that might help them?

How Far Does God Push The Faithful?

Neece — Sat, 08 Aug 2009 09:20:40 +0000

Apparently Abraham is the role model for how far god can push the faithful. Only in real cases, sometimes someone innocent actually dies. It seems that parents kill their children through denial of medical attention all too frequently these days. Often I don’t blog about these sad stories because I am so enraged I don’t feel I can do it without copious amounts of profanity and vitriol.

We have all heard about the Neumanns. They were both convicted of 2nd degree reckless homicide in the death of their 11 year old daughter Madeline. She had diabetes but it was undiagnosed. She died a horrible death at home, surrounded by praying sheeple who refused to call an ambulance until she stopped breathing. Doctors testified that Madeline could have been saved if she had received simple medical care like insulin and fluids before she stopped breathing.

The mother said that she and her husband believed their daughter’s deteriorating condition may have been the result of a falling out with another couple, and called them once the girl was unconscious and persuaded them to come pray for the girl.

“I asked her if she loved Jesus,” the mother testified. “She might have said yes. I know for sure she was acknowledging it. What sounds came out, I don’t remember. She was making noises. … My focus definitely was to pray.”

Their lawyer told the jury that Neumann sincerely believed praying would heal his daughter and he did nothing criminally wrong.

“Dale Neumann was doing what he thought would work for his daughter. He was administering faith healing. He thought it was working.”

What god would punish a young girl because her parents had a fight with another couple? Oh, right. The christian god. Of course. Dale Neumann had studied to be a pentecostal minister, but at the time of Madeline’s death the family didn’t belong to any organized religion. The mother said she didn’t have anything against doctors either. Then why is her daughter dead? Oh, right, because it was a spiritual illness. Yeah, the prayer really was helping. I see why they decided to hold off on the tried and true medical care in favor of pleas to an invisible man in the sky. Go with what (doesn’t) work, and keep doing it till your daughter is dead. Smart thinking.This is beyond reprehensible to me. I never wanted children of my own. But I feel that if you have a child, that is the most important responsibility in your life. You are obligated, as a human being, to do your very best to raise that child to become a healthy, happy adult. You created it, you take care of it and make sure it’s in good health. This means you must educate yourself, sometimes compromise your own comforts for that child, and so on.

Nothing is more important if you decide to create a life. If you can’t handle the responsibility, then don’t get pregnant, get an abortion, or put the baby up for adoption. It’s that freaking simple.

Why is the charge so minor for such a horrid crime? This girl could not walk, talk, drink or eat. People sat around and watched her die. In 2008. In America. And the worst they get is up to 25 years?

In Oregon a man was convicted of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for praying instead of seeking medical treatment for his 15 month old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in 2008. Both of the girl’s parents were acquitted of manslaughter charges. Why?

How criminal is it to let your own child die a horrible death while you watch and pray? What the hell is wrong with someone to be so detached from reality under such awful circumstances?

Two years ago, at 5:15 am, my husky, Stazi, came to the door after being outside for a few minutes. Her face was swollen horribly and I freaked out. She had eaten a bee! I called the emergency vet and waited for 2 minutes in a panic for the return call. The vet calmly told me to give her benadryl, and told me not to panic. Now, Stazi is my dog, not my baby, but I would have rushed her to the vet in a heartbeat if it had been serious and she needed medical care.

If it’s so simple for me to make a decision about my dog, how divorced from reality and common sense does a person have to be to forgo medical attention for their daughter or son? How devout and brainwashed do you have to be to think that god is testing you?

That’s what the Neumanns thought, that god was testing them and all they needed to do was pray. They never changed their story, even during the trial. Never said they were guilty of anything, and plan to appeal their sentences. That’s appalling. So I guess they failed that test though. Or did god?

Would you let your child die as a test of faith? Would you even let your dog or cat die as a test of faith? And if your dog or child did die, would you feel remorse? If you didn’t, wouldn’t you then be a heartless monster? Would a loving god push you that far, to the point of killing your own child?

No. Definitely not. But there is no god at all. The christian god is made up, as are all the others. Created by superstitious men and women who don’t understand the way the world works so they fill it with flawed gods. Gods that punish children for their parents’ sins. Gods that kill babies. Gods that breed hatred and fear.

I for one am glad to be god-free. Can I hear an amen?

From Here, Here and Here

The Nicest Compliment Ever

Neece — Tue, 26 May 2009 09:39:20 +0000

So, I got an email from a nice man yesterday. He read my de-conversion story and told me something I have never been told before, at least not this way. He told me I need to reconsider and have a child! Now, I’m 40, so I really don’t see that happening for a myriad of reasons, but the sentiment was so honest and forthright that I was taken aback.

This nice man found HDC and my story and just thought that atheists like me and my husband should have more children. You know, he’s right, in a way. I mean, if you can do it, and you’re a freethinking atheist, then yes, you should consider having a kid or two. Like he said, it would bring a bit more sanity into the world.

Unfortunately people who are more educated, intelligent and rational might think it’s a bad idea. But the movie Idiocracy does make a good point. Mostly people who are sheep, who follow the crowd, who think having unprotected sex is ok because, if they get pregnant it was “meant to be“! (my idiot neighbors told me this… they can’t afford their meager bills and the wife told me she doesn’t even like her husband, but he is “hers” so they might as well have a kid.. OMFG don’t even get me started on those two idiots… they believe drinking Mountain Dew is a good method of birth control! Seriously, WTF!)

I don’t have any specific numbers, but it seems that educated, intelligent people are having less children in Europe and America. While less educated, (more religious?), lower income people (I don’t know a politically correct term that would be better to use. So try not to be offended, ok?) are having more kids. I know that Europe has been dwindling in population, especially in Germany, Italy and other countries. And muslim people are filling up the ghost towns, then immediately going on the Dole over there. That’s what I’ve heard, but I don’t have hard data. (that’s from NPR, from a year ago, so maybe things are different now. But I don’t listen to NPR anymore). Pat Condell is always talking about such things too.

I never saw the movie, Idiocracy. It looked really dumb, but the concept is what I’m talking about. It’s more about I.Q. though, and I’m also talking about education and belief systems. If more atheists raise their children to be freethinkers and critical thinkers, imagine what the next generation would be like instead of what I see when we go out these days?

Since when did it become “cool” to be ignorant? That makes me stark raving crazy mad. I know of only 2 teenagers who seem to value intelligence and they are in my family. Maybe I sound old and crotchety, I don’t know. It just seems that teenagers are having babies, and that everyone is purposefully embracing ignorance and mindlessness.

In my day… (just kidding… but seriously, in my day, it wasn’t like this!)

Ok, it’s getting a bit late, the weekend has been really long, and I’m tired. But I wanted to thank the man for thinking I’d make a good parent. I know I’d raise my kids to be freethinking individuals, even though it’s not very cool.

Maybe you out there can chime in. Are you raising your children to be critical thinkers? How is that going? I imagine with the societal influences and poor education system it must be tough. Then again, am I just out of touch since I’m not a parent? Or did you do what my husband and I did? Did you decide for whatever reason that it would be best not to have kids? As always, I look forward to your thoughts!

How To Talk To A True Believer About Atheism And Religion

Neece — Thu, 21 May 2009 23:41:14 +0000

As you know, I have recently given up and gone back to Facebook (and Twitter). Twitter is not verbose enough. I see peoples’ tweets and links on my page and I don’t follow them because I have no idea what they are about. But I find that I like Facebook. I have found friends (a lot of you from here have befriended me, which I LOVE!), and those friends put up links and stories that I then look into, which is awesome.

Recently I decided to see about finding a few friends from high school. I found one, we’ll call him Pete. We have been chatting on Facebook and it was looking like maybe we could be friends again. I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. Well, then I mentioned that I went to a group meeting this past Sunday. I realized after mentioning it that the very name of the group would open up the discussion of religion and I tried to change the subject. I didn’t want to lose a friend before even getting him back.

The meeting I went to was for Morgantown Atheists. I’ve become rather active with them, as they are local, seem quite friendly, and hey, they’re atheists! Yay! Well, Pete immediately asked me, why am I an atheist? I started to tell him. I said that there’s no evidence for any gods. He said he had proof of god and the afterlife. I was intrigued and asked him for details, and to tell me why he is a christian, and he then told me 2 stories from his past, which have made him a believer.

He has a very unusual set of beliefs, culled together from different christian ideas, but mainly filtered down to only be the happy stuff. The stories he told were very much not happy. So I guess it makes sense for him to see the afterlife as a good thing.

As he told me more and more, I realized that if I said anything at all, to shine the light of logic and reason onto his stories and perceptions of god and the afterlife, that I’d alienate him as well as make him mad. He apparently derives great comfort from his beliefs, and I didn’t think it was appropriate to burst his bubble with talk of evidence, especially since it was clear that he felt he had more than enough proof. In fact, at one point he asked me if he had freaked me out. I had to say no, and that it wasn’t going to convert me either.The thing is, he ended the conversation and I haven’t heard from him since.

On a side note, my sisters-in-law are also very religious and on Facebook. They were in my face about god and praying and stuff until I finally reminded one of them that I refuse to pray for anyone. Right after that I started getting more atheist friends over there, thanks to you fine people, and I started sharing and posting more atheist stuff on my page. They have since stopped talking to me.

The other sister-in-law (that I didn’t confront about prayer) still comments if I put up a happy post about how lovely the weather is, but neither have chatted with me since I’ve become more vocal in my atheism on Facebook. What’s really sad is that it’s not really a great loss. I was constantly trying to stifle my irritation at them shoving their god down my throat. So now things are much less frustrating. But they’re part of my family, so it’s still sad.

Anyway, while in the middle of the conversation with Pete, I thought, hey, I’ll contact the Morgantown Atheists forum and ask for some help! I felt that I was too frustrated to not snap at Pete, so I thought maybe they could give me some objective pointers. I sent a message to them and got some great advice back. I thought I’d share it with you, so we all have it for when atheists and religious family and friends collide.

I’m sure you all have your ways to deal with this stuff. I already use a lot of this information all the time. But it just seemed particularly helpful all in one place.

First, David Mills wrote Atheist Universe. I’ve read the first 2 chapters awhile ago and loved it, but I was reminded that the second chapter is a question and answer between a christian and David, the atheist. If you go to his website, he offers the second chapter in audio format to listen to. I found that to be a great refresher and reminder, as well as found a few new points that I had missed when I read it. Now I’m going to read the rest of the book. (Sometimes I’m a bit slow with books, but I get there eventually.)

Neil offered me this advice: (I changed the beginning to sort of a list for easy reference)

Personally, I would say:

“I’m an atheist, for the same reason that you’re an atheist, when it comes to gods like Zeus”.

Atheism isn’t a rejection of any God, it is just the default position, the null position. I just don’t believe in magical, or supernatural, things until there is adequate evidence to support it.

Also, I notice that people often tend to get “get stuck” into the same beliefs of their parents, be they; Christians, Hindus, Muslims (or even the followers of Zeus). Because of that, it seems to me, that all religions are just dogma perpetuated from one generation to the next. And it seems to me to be just an arbitrary accident of birth, as to which one we end up getting saddled with. I try to keep an open mind, but until I see adequate supporting evidence I’ll just keep my default position.

Don’t be surprised if your friend seems a little bi-polar with you, from day to day. I’ve gotten into the God conversation with a very close friend and I found out that his Christian friends were telling him, on some days, how great it was that he can witness to me (the atheist). But, on other days they were telling him that he should remove himself from any godless people, and/or godless influences. Personally, I think “believers” are quick to try to pigeon-hole everything into two classifications, Good and Evil. So again, don’t be surprised by him getting a little bi-polar with you.

If it is a healthy, fair and rational discussion, you should be free to bring it up in conversations, and/or ask just as many questions, as he does. It is also very helpful (in any discussion) to try to be aware of your word choices, try not to put him on the defensive. Use qualifiers like “I think”, “its my opinion”, “I’ve heard”. Try to be inclusive by saying things like “we get saddled”, “we can’t know”. If you think your statement will be too attacking (How can YOU! think that) try deflecting your “attack” into something like “how can Christians think that”. And you may want to have him, and you, both agree that it is ok to disagree, when all is said and done. Nether of you should expect to change the other’s position. Discussions like this are more about learning the other’s position (at least to a better degree) and learning about gaps your own knowledge about your own position.

To help you articulate your position, as an atheist, you should definitely read/listen to books like Atheist Universe (which is sounds like your doing), The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation (it’s a quick read). I really like Bill Maher’s movie/documentary “Religulous” (you should be able to find it at BlockBuster or on NetFlix). You might want to recommend Religulous to your friend, it’s very funny, in places, and may be eye opening for him. I’ve changed my cell phone’s name (it’s blue tooth name) to say “U Must C Religulous”, I don’t know how often people look for other blue tooth devices, but if I’m around they see that

Neil
Beckley, WV
gotscience@verizon.net
http://www.myspace.com/99277352

Neil asked me to give his contact information in case anyone had questions, which I thought was pretty cool.
A few notes: Religulous was a great movie. I recommend it. I haven’t read the other 2 books. If you have feel free to give us a review in the comments.

I also got a short note from another group member who added:

The advice the others gave is very good, especially the David Mills Q&A that you downloaded. But don’t expect too much because in my experience most believers are coming from an emotional stance, not an evidence based one. So don’t be surprised if all the evidence in the world won’t convince him. To paraphrase Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything, because their belief is based on a deep seated need to believe.”

I didn’t get his permission so I won’t give his name. But it’s good stuff too, so I thought I’d share it.

If you have any thoughts on how to talk to true believers about atheism and religion, feel free to share! We can all use new techniques for these potentially difficult confrontations.

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