My sister-in-law (we’ll call her Martha) has been dating this guy who we’ll call Steve. I met him the night that she and Steve were reacquainted at the high school reunion last year. It was one of those big affairs where 10 years of classes were invited. Anyway she and Steve have basically been dating ever since. She hasn’t had the best luck with guys in the past but she’s head over heels in love with him and is very happy, which is good.

The night I met Steve, I mentioned to him that I was reading a great book called Microcosm: E. Coli and the New Science of Life. It’s a fantastic book that I highly recommend. Butch was there and chimed in that it’s all about evolution, which it is, in a very cool, observable way. Steve rolled his eyes and scoffed. Scoffed! I didn’t want to get into it since we were heading home but I immediately found myself feeling cold toward him.

So, when Martha brought Steve to a family BBQ the next day I was polite but really didn’t have anything to say to him. He seemed nice enough though.

Time went on and I learned from him that he likes Sarah Palin. He thinks she’s got some good ideas. (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth there) Martha told me he’s a full on conservative republican but that they don’t talk about politics. As I do with most people, I was also refraining from political  – or religious – talk with him as well.

To this day we’ve stayed clear of those two topics. But we’ve gone out to dinner quite a few times, hung out at family gatherings, and he even invited us over to watch some MMA on a channel we don’t get next month (Woot!) He’s a genuinely nice guy. He’s not stupid by any means, can hold a conversation, has a good sense of humor, and seems to be making Martha extremely happy.

Why am I talking about this? Well, to me, Sarah Palin is a stupid, vapid pentecostal nutcase with only enough brain cells to rub together to help her wink and flap her mouth when someone pulls her puppet strings. The fact that people give her 2 seconds of their time, combined with her views on Armageddon and the end times, makes her extremely dangerous. Usually when confronted with someone who likes Palin, I run the other way.

But this time, because I wanted Martha to be happy, I got to know Steve and found that I genuinely like him. I don’t want to talk about politics or religion with him, but I like the guy.

It leads me to wonder, are the vast majority of republicans and christians more like Steve? Are they relatively nice people who are not stupid, or even smart? Good, honest people who are just misguided in politics because of how they were raised or values they got from church?

Have the vocal minority that I see on tv or the interwebs overshadowed the quiet majority that encompasses Steve? Do the vocal minority give people like him a bad name? Or is that bad reputation well earned even for Steve?

And does it matter? I mean, if people like Steve would happily vote for Palin because of her “good ideas and folksy charm” doesn’t that make him a serious part of the problem, even if he’s a relatively nice guy?

Here’s another question. Are Steve and I going about this the right way? By eschewing political and religious debates and arguments, are we missing an opportunity? I don’t think so.

Sometimes the best way is to lead by example. We each know where the other is coming from, and he’s shown me that there are nice republican christians out there, something I wasn’t too sure of before. Maybe he has learned that atheists aren’t so bad by hanging out with Butch and I. Maybe that’s better than a bunch of heated arguments pitting reason against dogma, or republican conservatism against whatever the hell I am. Those arguments would never change the other’s mind, but would certainly strain or break the friendship we’ve developed.

Your thoughts?

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Woo can be defined as anything supernatural, irrational or lacking in evidence. So it would include religion and any kind of pseudoscience.

On a side note, is there anything that could be defined as woo that you still believe in? If so, why?

For me, I’ve somehow whittled down my friend list from all woo-lovers to all skeptical atheists. I didn’t do this deliberately, but I guess with my skeptical talk and constant questioning (not aggressively, but I really did question all the woo I previously embraced), my woo-loving friends all went their separate ways and avoided me within months of when my quest for knowledge began.

I didn’t have many friends for awhile but then found the Morgantown Atheists where I found several people that have become good friends. Also, having HDC has let me meet new people who were rather like-minded as well.

With extended family, I still have to deal with woo, both religious and supernatural. They know Butch (my awesome husband) and I are die-hard atheists so we have come to an unspoken agreement that we don’t talk about religion. Or politics just to be safe and have nice dinners together.

I think I’m lucky in most respects. My skeptical atheist friends keep things lively by being smart and reason-based (most of the time, we’re not perfect, of course). And my extended family gives me an occasional glimpse into woo-land so I get to see what the majority of people are dealing with and believing. It’s enough.

I don’t avoid anyone based on their woo. But I tend to gently state my skepticism when I can so that I am not being dishonest about myself. Then people who are wrapped in woo tend to avoid me, not the other way around. I can’t emphasize enough that I am very nice about it, not aggressive or “militant” at all. I’m probably way too nice about it. The other evening, I let my sister-in-law go on about her visit to a psychic and only said two things about how cold readings work. When the other sister-in-law said the psychic (a 95 year old woman) insisted she give her her hand (she didn’t want a reading) and told her to never drive, to dump her boyfriend (who she just moved in with and is very happy with) and other negative things, I said a few things then. Mainly that it’s all made up and it’s nonsense and don’t let that upset her. But even though she said it was no big deal, she talked about it all night. I got the impression it really bothered her.

As you may know, I’m happily married to Butch (we’ve been together for 15 years). So I’m not looking to date anyone, of course. But if I did have to date, I think I would be pretty strict about how much woo my partner could be into and still be in a relationship with me. I think it would be such a clash of belief and skepticism that it would cause problems. I think I’d have issues with it.

Let us know what you think in the comments!

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I thought I’d share some pictures from our Nature Walk.

In our conversations we talked about how people struggle when they are questioning their faith. It’s different for everyone, but some of the big things you have to give up are:

• Your consciousness living forever in heaven. Life after death.
• Someone thinking for you, telling you what your morals are, and spoon-feeding you the big answers to questions about why we’re here, etc.
• Community from your church. Sometimes this is everyone you know. Family and friends.

One thing the budding atheist community needs to do is to help people with things they miss out on from their church. This makes the transition away from religion easier and less painful.

The first one is the toughest. A person deconverting just has to come to terms with the cold hard fact that consciousness dies. But one way I’ve dealt with that is to find relief in the fact that I won’t burn in hell, since it doesn’t exist any more than heaven (which sounds extremely dull and boring).  Another way I’ve dealt with it is to really embrace science and learn about how amazing nature is.

That brings me to the second thing. What is my personal ethical/moral code? And the big questions. How did life begin? Why are we here? What is the meaning of life? What I’ve realized is that I had to reevaluate all these things. And it took time.

I’ve gone through the morals that I was indoctrinated with and carefully came up with my own reason-based code of ethics. It boils down to being good for goodness’ sake. You can see my 10 Principles here.

And I’ve realized that I have to come up with my own reason for the meaning of life. It’s individual. We all decide what that is for ourselves. A lot of this work was realizing I could throw away the garbage from religion I had accumulated. Filling in the answers for myself was much easier once I got rid of the nonsense.

When it comes to questions about how life began, I turn to science. That’s easy. The church could never answer those questions honestly, but science investigates these things every day, all around the world. It’s awesome. It certainly answers great questions a zillion times better than religion ever could.

Freethinking groups are the solution to community. We have a wonderful group here in Morgantown. Just do it. Find a group or start your own. If you want ideas for how to start your own group, let me know. I am not a group kind of person (being a bit of a hermit by nature) but I find that hanging out with my fellow atheist friends is wonderful. Give it a try. You might really like it.

And here is the sunset from our awesome day. I just caught the last bit of it.

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Here’s the experiment as explained in the book:

You have a serious conversation with a deeply christian friend. Your friend is intelligent, well educated and knowledgeable. You agree to record the session. The topic is islam. During the session, you discuss that mohammed was a self-appointed prophet and that he claimed he talked to allah and the angels. He wrote a book that he claimed was infallible, and he flew from Jerusalem to heaven on a horse.

During the conversation, you agree that mohammed was probably delusional to think he could talk to god. You agree that the koran was clearly written by mohammed and not allah. It is ludicrous for him to claim that he is the last prophet and that all others are false. Neither you nor your friend can believe that he flew to heaven, let alone on a horse. It all sounds too crazy, and you both agree it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you say that muslims did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that christianity is the true religion.

Over the next few days, you transcribe the recording onto paper. Then you change all references to mohammed and make them jesus. Now the document reads something like this:

During the conversation, you both agree that jesus was probably delusional to think he could talk to jehovah. The bible was clearly written by men and not jehovah. You both agree it is ludicrous for jesus to claim that he is the last prophet and that all later ones are false. Neither of you can believe that he rose from the dead, nor flew to heaven. It all sounds too crazy, and it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you both agree that christians did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that islam is the true religion.

Now, tell your friend, “I made a transcript of our conversation about islam and would like to go over it with you.” As you read it, watch her reaction. How does she respond to each statement? How soon does she get defensive? How quickly does she start making elaborate arguments that have no more factual basis than the first conversation? If you persist in this line of parallel reasoning, how long before she gets angry or breaks off the conversation? Could this conversation damage your friendship?

You can do this experiment with other prophetic religions. For example, substitute Joseph Smith for mormonism or moses for judaism.

Have you ever tried an experiment like this? Have you ever questioned your friend’s religion? Did it damage your friendship? Or a family member? Does that person still talk to you? How far did your religious friend go to make excuses and explain away his religion in the face of reality?

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Recently I decided to see about finding a few friends from high school. I found one, we’ll call him Pete. We have been chatting on Facebook and it was looking like maybe we could be friends again. I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. Well, then I mentioned that I went to a group meeting this past Sunday. I realized after mentioning it that the very name of the group would open up the discussion of religion and I tried to change the subject. I didn’t want to lose a friend before even getting him back.

The meeting I went to was for Morgantown Atheists. I’ve become rather active with them, as they are local, seem quite friendly, and hey, they’re atheists! Yay! Well, Pete immediately asked me, why am I an atheist? I started to tell him. I said that there’s no evidence for any gods. He said he had proof of god and the afterlife. I was intrigued and asked him for details, and to tell me why he is a christian, and he then told me 2 stories from his past, which have made him a believer.

He has a very unusual set of beliefs, culled together from different christian ideas, but mainly filtered down to only be the happy stuff. The stories he told were very much not happy. So I guess it makes sense for him to see the afterlife as a good thing.

As he told me more and more, I realized that if I said anything at all, to shine the light of logic and reason onto his stories and perceptions of god and the afterlife, that I’d alienate him as well as make him mad. He apparently derives great comfort from his beliefs, and I didn’t think it was appropriate to burst his bubble with talk of evidence, especially since it was clear that he felt he had more than enough proof. In fact, at one point he asked me if he had freaked me out. I had to say no, and that it wasn’t going to convert me either.The thing is, he ended the conversation and I haven’t heard from him since.

On a side note, my sisters-in-law are also very religious and on Facebook. They were in my face about god and praying and stuff until I finally reminded one of them that I refuse to pray for anyone. Right after that I started getting more atheist friends over there, thanks to you fine people, and I started sharing and posting more atheist stuff on my page. They have since stopped talking to me.

The other sister-in-law (that I didn’t confront about prayer) still comments if I put up a happy post about how lovely the weather is, but neither have chatted with me since I’ve become more vocal in my atheism on Facebook. What’s really sad is that it’s not really a great loss. I was constantly trying to stifle my irritation at them shoving their god down my throat. So now things are much less frustrating. But they’re part of my family, so it’s still sad.

Anyway, while in the middle of the conversation with Pete, I thought, hey, I’ll contact the Morgantown Atheists forum and ask for some help! I felt that I was too frustrated to not snap at Pete, so I thought maybe they could give me some objective pointers. I sent a message to them and got some great advice back. I thought I’d share it with you, so we all have it for when atheists and religious family and friends collide.

I’m sure you all have your ways to deal with this stuff. I already use a lot of this information all the time. But it just seemed particularly helpful all in one place.

First, David Mills wrote Atheist Universe. I’ve read the first 2 chapters awhile ago and loved it, but I was reminded that the second chapter is a question and answer between a christian and David, the atheist. If you go to his website, he offers the second chapter in audio format to listen to. I found that to be a great refresher and reminder, as well as found a few new points that I had missed when I read it. Now I’m going to read the rest of the book. (Sometimes I’m a bit slow with books, but I get there eventually.)

Neil offered me this advice: (I changed the beginning to sort of a list for easy reference)

Personally, I would say:

• “I’m an atheist, for the same reason that you’re an atheist, when it comes to gods like Zeus”.
• Atheism isn’t a rejection of any God, it is just the default position, the null position. I just don’t believe in magical, or supernatural, things until there is adequate evidence to support it.
• Also, I notice that people often tend to get “get stuck” into the same beliefs of their parents, be they; Christians, Hindus, Muslims (or even the followers of Zeus). Because of that, it seems to me, that all religions are just dogma perpetuated from one generation to the next. And it seems to me to be just an arbitrary accident of birth, as to which one we end up getting saddled with. I try to keep an open mind, but until I see adequate supporting evidence I’ll just keep my default position.

Don’t be surprised if your friend seems a little bi-polar with you, from day to day. I’ve gotten into the God conversation with a very close friend and I found out that his Christian friends were telling him, on some days, how great it was that he can witness to me (the atheist). But, on other days they were telling him that he should remove himself from any godless people, and/or godless influences. Personally, I think “believers” are quick to try to pigeon-hole everything into two classifications, Good and Evil. So again, don’t be surprised by him getting a little bi-polar with you.

If it is a healthy, fair and rational discussion, you should be free to bring it up in conversations, and/or ask just as many questions, as he does. It is also very helpful (in any discussion) to try to be aware of your word choices, try not to put him on the defensive. Use qualifiers like “I think”, “its my opinion”, “I’ve heard”. Try to be inclusive by saying things like “we get saddled”, “we can’t know”. If you think your statement will be too attacking (How can YOU! think that) try deflecting your “attack” into something like “how can Christians think that”. And you may want to have him, and you, both agree that it is ok to disagree, when all is said and done. Nether of you should expect to change the other’s position. Discussions like this are more about learning the other’s position (at least to a better degree) and learning about gaps your own knowledge about your own position.

To help you articulate your position, as an atheist, you should definitely read/listen to books like Atheist Universe (which is sounds like your doing), The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation (it’s a quick read). I really like Bill Maher’s movie/documentary “Religulous” (you should be able to find it at BlockBuster or on NetFlix). You might want to recommend Religulous to your friend, it’s very funny, in places, and may be eye opening for him. I’ve changed my cell phone’s name (it’s blue tooth name) to say “U Must C Religulous”, I don’t know how often people look for other blue tooth devices, but if I’m around they see that

Neil
Beckley, WV
gotscience@verizon.net
http://www.myspace.com/99277352

Neil asked me to give his contact information in case anyone had questions, which I thought was pretty cool.
A few notes: Religulous was a great movie. I recommend it. I haven’t read the other 2 books. If you have feel free to give us a review in the comments.

I also got a short note from another group member who added:

The advice the others gave is very good, especially the David Mills Q&A that you downloaded. But don’t expect too much because in my experience most believers are coming from an emotional stance, not an evidence based one. So don’t be surprised if all the evidence in the world won’t convince him. To paraphrase Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything, because their belief is based on a deep seated need to believe.”

I didn’t get his permission so I won’t give his name. But it’s good stuff too, so I thought I’d share it.

If you have any thoughts on how to talk to true believers about atheism and religion, feel free to share! We can all use new techniques for these potentially difficult confrontations.

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Now for the Rambling Political Bit:

After about 2 years of campaigning and general political nastiness, it’s over. We’ll have a new president soon! Change is in the air! President Barack Obama. I don’t know about you, but I’m so glad it’s done.

It seems that most of America is probably relieved and happy today, while some people (like my parents) are very angry and busy selling off their stocks so that they can leave the country. Maybe they can move to Canada. Oh wait, Canada really IS a socialist country. Just teasing.

Hopefully things will settle down, and people will get on with their lives. My phone didn’t ring all day from the Republican party, telling me how to think, so it was nice to have some peace and quiet.

I feel like there is so much potential for positive change. I hope good things will be able to happen with a new administration.

What does it mean to us, the little people, to have a new president? Hopefully a lot. In my humble opinion, things can only get better after the past 8 years. Apparently most of America agrees that it was time for something different. WOOT!

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First, my husband Butch, who happens to be awesomely smart (and pretty damned rogueishly handsome too! hee hee). He doesn’t blog often, but when he does, I just love to see what is bouncing around in his brain. Usually it’s a bit on the angry/ranting side of things. Ok, not usually, almost always.

The other day he wrote about Things Every American Needs To Know. It’s a bit on the “angry diatribe” kinda post, but it’s good stuff and I wanted to share it with you. Basically it’s the difference between rights and privileges. I hope you find it interesting.

Second, my bestest friend (besides my awesome husband, Butch of course!) is Gary. I introduced you to him the other day in the Out of the Blue Jesus Pitch. He was very nice to a bible thumper who randomly tried to convert him to the jesus cult. He wasn’t shaken in his atheism though. He stood firm and politely deflected the attack.

There is a small update on that. The bible thumper contacted him several more times. It’s so boring and repetitive that I won’t bother you with it. She never changed her pitch and refused to listen to anything he said. Of course. He finally told her to leave him alone or he’d block her. Case closed.

But the real reason I’m bringing him up today, is because I just spent the last couple of days reinstalling windows and therefore everything else. I had been having increasing issues with my computer. If you have windows, you’ll understand. It happens. Most IT people recommend reinstalling windows about once a year. That’s about how often I do it.

Of course, I backed up all my settings and stuff. But then windows refused to let me use them. It’s been a grind, as usual. So, that’s why I haven’t been around much.

Now, back to Gary. He is the saver of my bacon. Has been as long as we’ve been friends. He’s my IT guy. Recently he has started offering to help people through this neat program called Crossloop. I love Crossloop. It’s a very simple to use program that lets you access another computer, or let someone help you with yours. User friendly is its middle name. I’ve never helped anyone, but Gary has helped me many times since we both installed it (which takes about 2 minutes and works with your firewall without problems).

I’m telling you all this to pimp my buddy out. Like I mentioned, he started offering to help people through Crossloop a short while ago. You can find his profile here. So, if you need help with your computer, I highly recommend him. He’s saved my bacon many times.

Ok, that’s it, I’m done pimping now. You can go back to your regularly scheduled lives. Have a great day!

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