Heaving Dead Cats » friend

A Thought Experiment With Your Religious Friends

Neece — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 02:41:49 +0000

I am reading several books right now (I have them all listed in the left sidebar). One is called The God Virus and I just started it the other day. On page 18, Darrel W. Ray describes an experiment. I think I’ve heard of it before, but I thought I’d share it with you because it shows how religion attacks the critical thinking skills of the mind. As Mr. Ray says, it leaves the skill intact for other religions but disables critical thinking about one’s own religion. It really is like a virus of the mind.

Here’s the experiment as explained in the book:

You have a serious conversation with a deeply christian friend. Your friend is intelligent, well educated and knowledgeable. You agree to record the session. The topic is islam. During the session, you discuss that mohammed was a self-appointed prophet and that he claimed he talked to allah and the angels. He wrote a book that he claimed was infallible, and he flew from Jerusalem to heaven on a horse.

During the conversation, you agree that mohammed was probably delusional to think he could talk to god. You agree that the koran was clearly written by mohammed and not allah. It is ludicrous for him to claim that he is the last prophet and that all others are false. Neither you nor your friend can believe that he flew to heaven, let alone on a horse. It all sounds too crazy, and you both agree it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you say that muslims did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that christianity is the true religion.

Over the next few days, you transcribe the recording onto paper. Then you change all references to mohammed and make them jesus. Now the document reads something like this:

During the conversation, you both agree that jesus was probably delusional to think he could talk to jehovah. The bible was clearly written by men and not jehovah. You both agree it is ludicrous for jesus to claim that he is the last prophet and that all later ones are false. Neither of you can believe that he rose from the dead, nor flew to heaven. It all sounds too crazy, and it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you both agree that christians did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that islam is the true religion.

Now, tell your friend, “I made a transcript of our conversation about islam and would like to go over it with you.” As you read it, watch her reaction. How does she respond to each statement? How soon does she get defensive? How quickly does she start making elaborate arguments that have no more factual basis than the first conversation? If you persist in this line of parallel reasoning, how long before she gets angry or breaks off the conversation? Could this conversation damage your friendship?

You can do this experiment with other prophetic religions. For example, substitute Joseph Smith for mormonism or moses for judaism.

Have you ever tried an experiment like this? Have you ever questioned your friend’s religion? Did it damage your friendship? Or a family member? Does that person still talk to you? How far did your religious friend go to make excuses and explain away his religion in the face of reality?

How To Talk To A True Believer About Atheism And Religion

Neece — Thu, 21 May 2009 23:41:14 +0000

As you know, I have recently given up and gone back to Facebook (and Twitter). Twitter is not verbose enough. I see peoples’ tweets and links on my page and I don’t follow them because I have no idea what they are about. But I find that I like Facebook. I have found friends (a lot of you from here have befriended me, which I LOVE!), and those friends put up links and stories that I then look into, which is awesome.

Recently I decided to see about finding a few friends from high school. I found one, we’ll call him Pete. We have been chatting on Facebook and it was looking like maybe we could be friends again. I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. Well, then I mentioned that I went to a group meeting this past Sunday. I realized after mentioning it that the very name of the group would open up the discussion of religion and I tried to change the subject. I didn’t want to lose a friend before even getting him back.

The meeting I went to was for Morgantown Atheists. I’ve become rather active with them, as they are local, seem quite friendly, and hey, they’re atheists! Yay! Well, Pete immediately asked me, why am I an atheist? I started to tell him. I said that there’s no evidence for any gods. He said he had proof of god and the afterlife. I was intrigued and asked him for details, and to tell me why he is a christian, and he then told me 2 stories from his past, which have made him a believer.

He has a very unusual set of beliefs, culled together from different christian ideas, but mainly filtered down to only be the happy stuff. The stories he told were very much not happy. So I guess it makes sense for him to see the afterlife as a good thing.

As he told me more and more, I realized that if I said anything at all, to shine the light of logic and reason onto his stories and perceptions of god and the afterlife, that I’d alienate him as well as make him mad. He apparently derives great comfort from his beliefs, and I didn’t think it was appropriate to burst his bubble with talk of evidence, especially since it was clear that he felt he had more than enough proof. In fact, at one point he asked me if he had freaked me out. I had to say no, and that it wasn’t going to convert me either.The thing is, he ended the conversation and I haven’t heard from him since.

On a side note, my sisters-in-law are also very religious and on Facebook. They were in my face about god and praying and stuff until I finally reminded one of them that I refuse to pray for anyone. Right after that I started getting more atheist friends over there, thanks to you fine people, and I started sharing and posting more atheist stuff on my page. They have since stopped talking to me.

The other sister-in-law (that I didn’t confront about prayer) still comments if I put up a happy post about how lovely the weather is, but neither have chatted with me since I’ve become more vocal in my atheism on Facebook. What’s really sad is that it’s not really a great loss. I was constantly trying to stifle my irritation at them shoving their god down my throat. So now things are much less frustrating. But they’re part of my family, so it’s still sad.

Anyway, while in the middle of the conversation with Pete, I thought, hey, I’ll contact the Morgantown Atheists forum and ask for some help! I felt that I was too frustrated to not snap at Pete, so I thought maybe they could give me some objective pointers. I sent a message to them and got some great advice back. I thought I’d share it with you, so we all have it for when atheists and religious family and friends collide.

I’m sure you all have your ways to deal with this stuff. I already use a lot of this information all the time. But it just seemed particularly helpful all in one place.

First, David Mills wrote Atheist Universe. I’ve read the first 2 chapters awhile ago and loved it, but I was reminded that the second chapter is a question and answer between a christian and David, the atheist. If you go to his website, he offers the second chapter in audio format to listen to. I found that to be a great refresher and reminder, as well as found a few new points that I had missed when I read it. Now I’m going to read the rest of the book. (Sometimes I’m a bit slow with books, but I get there eventually.)

Neil offered me this advice: (I changed the beginning to sort of a list for easy reference)

Personally, I would say:

“I’m an atheist, for the same reason that you’re an atheist, when it comes to gods like Zeus”.

Atheism isn’t a rejection of any God, it is just the default position, the null position. I just don’t believe in magical, or supernatural, things until there is adequate evidence to support it.

Also, I notice that people often tend to get “get stuck” into the same beliefs of their parents, be they; Christians, Hindus, Muslims (or even the followers of Zeus). Because of that, it seems to me, that all religions are just dogma perpetuated from one generation to the next. And it seems to me to be just an arbitrary accident of birth, as to which one we end up getting saddled with. I try to keep an open mind, but until I see adequate supporting evidence I’ll just keep my default position.

Don’t be surprised if your friend seems a little bi-polar with you, from day to day. I’ve gotten into the God conversation with a very close friend and I found out that his Christian friends were telling him, on some days, how great it was that he can witness to me (the atheist). But, on other days they were telling him that he should remove himself from any godless people, and/or godless influences. Personally, I think “believers” are quick to try to pigeon-hole everything into two classifications, Good and Evil. So again, don’t be surprised by him getting a little bi-polar with you.

If it is a healthy, fair and rational discussion, you should be free to bring it up in conversations, and/or ask just as many questions, as he does. It is also very helpful (in any discussion) to try to be aware of your word choices, try not to put him on the defensive. Use qualifiers like “I think”, “its my opinion”, “I’ve heard”. Try to be inclusive by saying things like “we get saddled”, “we can’t know”. If you think your statement will be too attacking (How can YOU! think that) try deflecting your “attack” into something like “how can Christians think that”. And you may want to have him, and you, both agree that it is ok to disagree, when all is said and done. Nether of you should expect to change the other’s position. Discussions like this are more about learning the other’s position (at least to a better degree) and learning about gaps your own knowledge about your own position.

To help you articulate your position, as an atheist, you should definitely read/listen to books like Atheist Universe (which is sounds like your doing), The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation (it’s a quick read). I really like Bill Maher’s movie/documentary “Religulous” (you should be able to find it at BlockBuster or on NetFlix). You might want to recommend Religulous to your friend, it’s very funny, in places, and may be eye opening for him. I’ve changed my cell phone’s name (it’s blue tooth name) to say “U Must C Religulous”, I don’t know how often people look for other blue tooth devices, but if I’m around they see that

Neil
Beckley, WV
gotscience@verizon.net
http://www.myspace.com/99277352

Neil asked me to give his contact information in case anyone had questions, which I thought was pretty cool.
A few notes: Religulous was a great movie. I recommend it. I haven’t read the other 2 books. If you have feel free to give us a review in the comments.

I also got a short note from another group member who added:

The advice the others gave is very good, especially the David Mills Q&A that you downloaded. But don’t expect too much because in my experience most believers are coming from an emotional stance, not an evidence based one. So don’t be surprised if all the evidence in the world won’t convince him. To paraphrase Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything, because their belief is based on a deep seated need to believe.”

I didn’t get his permission so I won’t give his name. But it’s good stuff too, so I thought I’d share it.

If you have any thoughts on how to talk to true believers about atheism and religion, feel free to share! We can all use new techniques for these potentially difficult confrontations.

Wow. It’s Over! And Other Goodness

Neece — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:41:33 +0000

First, let’s do the other goodness. The political bit follows. My friend has been busy lately and I want to share what he’s been doing.

Global Atheist is an aggregate site that refreshes every 15 minutes. It’s a great place to scan lots of awesome skeptical and atheist sites at once.

Now for the Rambling Political Bit:

After about 2 years of campaigning and general political nastiness, it’s over. We’ll have a new president soon! Change is in the air! President Barack Obama. I don’t know about you, but I’m so glad it’s done.

It seems that most of America is probably relieved and happy today, while some people (like my parents) are very angry and busy selling off their stocks so that they can leave the country. Maybe they can move to Canada. Oh wait, Canada really IS a socialist country. Just teasing.

Hopefully things will settle down, and people will get on with their lives. My phone didn’t ring all day from the Republican party, telling me how to think, so it was nice to have some peace and quiet.

I feel like there is so much potential for positive change. I hope good things will be able to happen with a new administration.

What does it mean to us, the little people, to have a new president? Hopefully a lot. In my humble opinion, things can only get better after the past 8 years. Apparently most of America agrees that it was time for something different. WOOT!

The Men In My Life

Neece — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:54:45 +0000

Hey everyone. How are you today? This post will be about the 2 guys in my life. Coincidentally, they both have done something recently that I wanted to share with you. So here you go:

First, my husband Butch, who happens to be awesomely smart (and pretty damned rogueishly handsome too! hee hee). He doesn’t blog often, but when he does, I just love to see what is bouncing around in his brain. Usually it’s a bit on the angry/ranting side of things. Ok, not usually, almost always.

The other day he wrote about Things Every American Needs To Know. It’s a bit on the “angry diatribe” kinda post, but it’s good stuff and I wanted to share it with you. Basically it’s the difference between rights and privileges. I hope you find it interesting.

Second, my bestest friend (besides my awesome husband, Butch of course!) is Gary. I introduced you to him the other day in the Out of the Blue Jesus Pitch. He was very nice to a bible thumper who randomly tried to convert him to the jesus cult. He wasn’t shaken in his atheism though. He stood firm and politely deflected the attack.

There is a small update on that. The bible thumper contacted him several more times. It’s so boring and repetitive that I won’t bother you with it. She never changed her pitch and refused to listen to anything he said. Of course. He finally told her to leave him alone or he’d block her. Case closed.

But the real reason I’m bringing him up today, is because I just spent the last couple of days reinstalling windows and therefore everything else. I had been having increasing issues with my computer. If you have windows, you’ll understand. It happens. Most IT people recommend reinstalling windows about once a year. That’s about how often I do it.

Of course, I backed up all my settings and stuff. But then windows refused to let me use them. It’s been a grind, as usual. So, that’s why I haven’t been around much.

Now, back to Gary. He is the saver of my bacon. Has been as long as we’ve been friends. He’s my IT guy. Recently he has started offering to help people through this neat program called Crossloop. I love Crossloop. It’s a very simple to use program that lets you access another computer, or let someone help you with yours. User friendly is its middle name. I’ve never helped anyone, but Gary has helped me many times since we both installed it (which takes about 2 minutes and works with your firewall without problems).

I’m telling you all this to pimp my buddy out. Like I mentioned, he started offering to help people through Crossloop a short while ago. You can find his profile here. So, if you need help with your computer, I highly recommend him. He’s saved my bacon many times.

Ok, that’s it, I’m done pimping now. You can go back to your regularly scheduled lives. Have a great day!

Some People Are Like Sparklers

Neece — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 05:23:01 +0000

You know the type, I’m sure. They’re all flashy and fun in the beginning. Mildly entertaining, shiny and interesting. Then they start to sputter. You see that you’re just dealing with flash signifying nothing, but it only happens for a brief moment. The flash and sparkly goodness comes back and you go on with your new friend.

But then the sputtering happens more frequently. And finally their spark and interest dies completely. And you are left with a flimsy little stick in your hand, wondering, why the hell was I even amused by such trivia in the first place?

You’re not necessarily mad at the person for being a “flash in the pan” but you’re kind of irritated with yourself for falling for the sparkle, the glamour.

I know I can’t be alone in feeling this way. I just find that it happens a lot. Most people are sparklers in my life, it seems. Of course, I sometimes get a lot out of meeting a sparkler. I learn something about myself or the world that is a valuable lesson. That’s always a good thing.

My husband and I just went for our evening walk where we talked about sparkler people. He said something really neat. He suggested that the sparkler person benefits from the relationship, however brief, as well. Because you are probably the source of their illumination. You’re the spark that makes them sparkle. That’s a nice idea.

But I invariably feel like a fool for falling for that person and thinking that maybe there could be a real friendship budding when it was all just flash and excitement.

Maybe the lesson here is to learn to identify sparkler people while they are still burning brightly, when you first meet them. That way you know it’s just temporary, but you still get the fun and thrill while it lasts.

Karen 1958-2008

Neece — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 06:29:03 +0000

Friend and confidant

Admired, brilliant, loquacious

Bold, fiery spirit

Heaving Dead Cats » friend

A Thought Experiment With Your Religious Friends

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