The first thing I noticed was 2 cops directing traffic. Butch commented on taxpayer resources being used for such a purpose, but they were definitely needed. This was a big church with lots of cars. The building looks more like a school than a church, if you ask me.

Here’s where we went: Chestnut Ridge Church. None of us got a good estimate of how many seats there were. It was set up like a theater with a big stage, a 6 piece pop music band, 2 giant screens where they put the words to the songs and the bible verses from the sermon, and movie theater seating. The control booth is state of the art, like you’d find for a rock concert.Free coffee was served before people went in and each seat had a cup holder like in a movie theater. There were no crosses, no crucifixes, no representations of Jesus at all, nothing that made it seem church-like. It was very casual, very relaxed.

Everyone was very pleasant and nice. We had to shake hands and everyone made eye contact. Children were all well behaved and not too many babies cried much. The TV monitors counted down to the start, then they just basically began with a rundown of the schedule, then everyone said hi to their neighbor then 3 or 4 songs which people were encouraged to sing to, with the karaoke lyrics on the screens.

People seemed to enjoy the music which was very loud. The audience had very little lighting, just enough for me to see my notebook and for people to see if they wanted to get up. But the stage had concert lighting including a smoke machine. The babies didn’t seem upset by the incredibly loud music and the bass was really cranked up on the drums. People seemed to enjoy it but no one got “into the spirit” or did anything crazy, just a bit of keeping time and singing, stuff like that, maybe a bit of clapping when prompted.

We guessed the seating to be around 1500 but that’s a very rough guess. It was about 85-90% full, mostly young people (teens to 30′s, as a rough guess), about 99.9% white. One of my heathen friends saw one black man in African garb in the parking lot when we were going in. Other than that, I only saw white people. Then again, West Virginia is very white if I recall the statistics, so it doesn’t mean too much.

But remember how small our area is. Sure, Morgantown isn’t too small, and the college kids are back for the fall semester, but this is outside of town, and I am just amazed that they had so many seats filled. One thing my friend Joe noticed was not too many older people. But we went to the 11 am service. Maybe the 9 am service catered more to older folk.

So there was about 25 – 30 minutes of singing, which was basically teaching everyone how unworthy they are without God and how much they need him to fill their hearts. And give thanks for Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross and having that bad weekend for us. The band was really good, actually. The two singers had great voices, especially the woman, and the guitar player had mad skillz. The drums were really loud but I think that was intentional to help “move” people.

Some of the songs. The words in quotes are actual lyrics from the TV screens:

• Your Grace is Enough: positive song reminding God to “remember your promise”
• We Cry Out: repent and ask for mercy
• Glory of it All: he came for redemption to save us all; he forgives.
• Unnamed song: a song about having secrets and fear. “his blood can cover us” (ew!)

After the singing, the pastor came out. Like the first guy who seemed to be the master of ceremonies, the pastor was rather unassuming, casually dressed and rather mellow. He seemed humble, in a way, but that might not be the best word to describe him. He preached for about 30 minutes and the message was generally emotional.

There was no substance or anything you could sink your teeth into with what he said. It was all intangible and boiled down to the fact that you’re useless without Jesus, who came to save everyone so you don’t have to bear your burden alone. Just ask him into your heart. He said that you’ll probably still have the same burdens – which I found interesting – but that you’ll also have Jesus. Gee, thanks. Now I have a freeloader and a burden.

It was all very wishy-washy and pleasant. Extremely watered down. Kind of like Christian Homeopathy.

Here are some of the things the pastor said. I wrote them down word for word to share with you:

• John 10:10 (NASB, NIV), Psalm 23
• Isaiah 40:30-31 (rest of bible from NIV)
• Matthew 11:28-30
• “I don’t think life is supposed to be a burden.”
• Galatians 2:20a – crucified in christ. I no longer live, but christ lives in me…
• “God wants to give you more than you can handle.” (so that you’ll let go of your burden and let christ into your heart)
• “When you put your faith in christ, you get a new identity.”
• Luke 10:38-42 – the story of Martha and Mary. Moral of the story, don’t be a Martha!
• “Christians are so busy working for christ, serving christ, they don’t worship him anymore.”
• If you’re a Martha you’re hard to live with. You’ve forgotten how to live.
• Colossians 2:6a – live in Jesus
• John 15:5-8 – the vine and branches parable. You can’t do a single spiritual thing without christ.
• But Jesus’ parables make one point, don’t take them too far. When Jesus talks about the bad branches being cut off and thrown in the fire, that’s not about going to hell. (This was his only reference to hell or any kind of punishment and he made sure that we knew that wasn’t what was meant)
• John 15:7 (again, just so you get it)
• “The burden you carry might remain the same. But now you’ll have Jesus.”
• Homework for the week: Am I Striving or Living? Striving is struggling and judging others. Living is only done through christ and is effortless and happy.
• “There’s a joy that comes when you get this.” (when you start living and stop striving, when you accept Jesus into your heart)

In essence, I felt he was saying you have to hand over your responsibility to christ. You can’t be a whole person without Jesus. And God will make your life harder until you crack and let Jesus in. But that’s just me seeing it from my heathen perspective.

A few more things. When they asked for money, they actually passed around cheap buckets! The people sitting to our right put in a $20 bill, and one of our group saw someone else put in a check for $40. I put in my envelope of quotes, and Butch put his in too. A couple others in our group also did the envelope trick. They basically only asked for money from the regulars. They said if we were just visiting we didn’t need to feel obligated to donate. See below for what Butch and I wrote. In the service the pastor mentioned that the church wasn’t doing as well as they had hoped. But I think that was a lie. They looked like they were raking it in, and everything was top notch. On the website, I think they said the church cost $12 million. Tax free, though. Of course.

Only one short prayer, and no communion, I noticed. And no baptism or mention of either. But they have many other services, some where they “study” the bible, some for adults, college kids (we have a great university here in Morgantown – go Mountaineers!), teens, kids, etc. They also have counseling and an art program. They really do want you to feel like part of a community, it seems, although the service we went to was more like a rock concert. Their other services sound like they are tailored to connect to people.

After the service, there was something called the Mix out front. There was inflatable naked twister, a badminton net, hamburgers and hot dogs being grilled, a football to throw around, all for teens and college kids. Ok, it wasn’t naked twister. But it was inflatable. lol.

I have to say, if I had to go to a church, I’d pick one like this. Everyone was so nice, but it didn’t seem fake or forced. No one seemed too fervent or angry. It was just so damned pleasant. Of course, my little Grinch heart, blackened by years of godlessness couldn’t handle it and I was itching to get out of there, but that’s just me being me, the typical curmudgeonly atheist.

There was nothing negative, no hell-fire, no hatred or bigotry displayed, no fundamentalism. This church seemed to really focus on being a nice, casual place to hang out, be part of a community of like-minded people, and be a generally nice person.

While I didn’t enjoy myself I am glad I went and experienced it. It was definitely interesting and enlightening. I can certainly see the appeal of a church like this over what I had when I was a kid.

Here are the quotes I put in my envelope and gave instead of a donation:

• I don’t want to believe, I want to know. Carl Sagan
• Scientia Vincere Tenebras (Science will defeat darkness)
• I have no need for a religion. I have a conscience.
• If God’s love is unconditional, then why does Hell exist?
• I would rather have questions that can’t be answered than answers that can’t be questioned.

Here’s what Butch wrote:
Thank you for reaffirming my atheism. Sorry there’s no money. From the look of things, you don’t need it, so you’ve got that going for you.
Have a great life,
An Atheist

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Before that, I’d have to go back to my troubled religious youth to remember being in church. Sitting uncomfortably in straight backed pews; singing vapid, falsely cheerful songs of unworthiness and worship to an invisible sky daddy; sipping grape juice and eating stale bits of savior; getting baptized 3 times in 3 different churches to ward off eternal damnation and gnashing of teeth in the sulfurous, burning pits of hell; dealing with fake smiles on fake faces adorned in Avon makeup and festooned in Sears and Roebuck Sunday best outfits; parroting bible stories carefully cherry-picked from the sordid pages of a book filled with murder, slavery and hate.

None of it was all that pleasant. All of it was forced. No one ever seemed genuinely kind or compassionate. When I learned about hypocrisy at the age of 12 I promptly called bullshit on the whole mess of religion and refused to go again. My parents were furious, but in the end they gave up on me, content that I’d eventually get my just reward in the fiery lakes of hell.

This Sunday we’re going to the mega-church about 45 minutes away. I don’t want to go but my local group wants to experience it. Since I’m the Official Cat Herder, I feel like it would be a good thing to go along. Part of me wonders what it’s like in a mega-church. What is the feel of the place? Something I thought church should do for people is give them a sense of belonging, of community. How can you get that in a huge auditorium? I have no idea how big this place is. So it’s only fair that I actually experience it, I guess.

I have some questions that I want to answer on Sunday. Feel free to comment with other questions I can try to answer as well. Here’s what I have so far. I will take notes while I’m there.

• What makes people excited to come here?
• What messages are they conveying? Fire and Brimstone (like I got in the Southern Baptist church I went to as a child?), Love Thy Neighbor? Look forward to Heaven and forget about the troubles of today? End Times? Healing?
• Are the messages cherry-picked? Are they exclusively positive or are there warnings as well?
• Is there any bigotry?
• How many people are there? How many seats are there? How many seats are filled?
• What is the overall emotion? Do people seem desperately, fakely happy? Do they seem unconnected to reality? Are they calm or elated? Are they somber? Are they quiet or excited? Are they glassy-eyed?
• Do they talk to each other? Do they all sit near each other or are they scattered about? Is there any sense of “community?”

When the collection plate comes around, I have an envelope to put in. It contains the following quotes:

• I don’t want to believe, I want to know. Carl Sagan
• Scientia Vincere Tenebras (Science will defeat darkness)
• I have no need for a religion. I have a conscience.
• If God’s love is unconditional, then why does Hell exist?
• I would rather have questions that can’t be answered than answers that can’t be questioned.

Thank you for all of your quotes that you shared with me. There were so many good ones, it was hard to decide which ones I wanted, but I had an idea of the message I wanted to convey. Someone commented that they didn’t know why I’d do such a thing. Well, I shared the idea with the rest of my group and hopefully others will also contribute an envelope of quotes to the collection plate.

Here is my reasoning. I will be uncomfortable enough in the presence of strangers ( I have severe Social Anxiety, of several diagnosed varieties, btw, so this is very stressful to me, just to go there at all), the last thing I want to do is stand out from the crowd and look really weird. As a Social Phobic, I like to blend in to avoid bringing attention to myself. I won’t sing the hymns or bow my head, but I will be very courteous and polite. I’m in their house, after all. The goal is to learn and experience. So I thought it would be nice to have something to put in the collection plate.

They will open the envelope and instead of getting hard earned (undeserved) money they will get the opportunity to experience a different worldview in a nonthreatening way. Of course, you can never teach anyone anything unless they are willing to learn.  I don’t expect my quotes to change any minds.

Now, to be completely honest, I must confess to you that part of the reason is harmless deviousness. I can’t help it. I want to smirk all the way to our brunch afterward thinking of them opening the envelope and getting wisdom instead of untaxed, undeclared income. To think I will spread a bit of Carl Sagan goodness and imagine their eyebrows raise as they realize a heathen sat politely among them tickles me to some degree.

If I have to suffer this discomfort at least I can have a tiny bit of harmless fun, can’t I? I know that my message will be discarded, probably in righteous indignation. But I picked my quotes very carefully. I tried not to be offensive or nasty in any way. I tried to show a love of science and knowledge, to show that atheists have morals, to show that asking questions and thinking critically is a wonderful human ability that shouldn’t be wasted by unquestioning obedience to an invisible man in the sky.

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For example, many blend christianity with Eastern or new age philosophies such as reincarnation, astrology and the belief in spiritual energy in physical objects. Sizeable minorities in all major U.S. religious groups say they have experienced supernatural phenomena, such as being in touch with the dead or with ghosts.

A third of Americans attend different religious services. Personally I find this amazing. When I studied different religions, I lost my faith in all of them pretty quickly because they sort of canceled each other out. Instead 35% of Americans seem to handle the conflicting faiths and stories just fine.

24% of Americans and 22% of christians, specifically, believe in astrology and 15% have consulted a fortuneteller or psychic. Damn, I’m in the wrong business.

Nearly half (49%) of the public says they’ve had a religious or mystical experience, defined as a “moment of sudden religious insight or awakening.”

This is interesting but not surprising. About 1/4 of adults express belief in tenets of certain Eastern religions: 24% believe in reincarnation, 23% believe in yoga as a spiritual practice. 26% believe in spiritual energy located in physical things such as mountains, trees or crystals and 25% believe in astrology. About 16% believe in the ‘evil eye’ or that certain people can curse or cast spells that cause bad things to happen to someone.

“Compared with other religious traditions, white evangelical Protestants consistently express lower levels of acceptance of both Eastern beliefs (reincarnation, yoga) and New Age beliefs (spiritual energy in physical things and astrology). For example, roughly one-in-ten white evangelicals believes in reincarnation, compared with 24% among mainline Protestants, 25% among both white Catholics and those unaffiliated with any religion, and 29% among black Protestants. Similarly, 13% of white evangelicals believe in astrology, compared with roughly one-quarter or more among other religious traditions. There are few differences among religious traditions in belief in the “evil eye,” though black Protestants stand out for high levels of belief on this question (32%).”

“Among Protestants, high levels of religious commitment are associated with lower levels of acceptance of Eastern or New Age beliefs. Among both evangelical and mainline Protestants, those who attend church weekly express much lower levels of belief in reincarnation, yoga, the existence of spiritual energy in physical things and astrology compared with those who attend religious services less often. Among Catholics, by contrast, frequency of church attendance is linked much less closely with these kinds of beliefs, although those who attend less often do express higher levels of belief in astrology compared with weekly attenders.”

“Hispanics are more likely than whites to believe in yoga, spiritual energy in physical objects, astrology and the evil eye, and blacks are more likely than whites to believe in reincarnation and the evil eye. Older people (those over age 65) consistently express lower levels of acceptance of these kinds of beliefs compared with younger people. These beliefs are more common among Democrats and independents than Republicans and are more widely held by liberals and moderates than conservatives. The difference between liberals and conservatives is especially pronounced on the question of belief in yoga as a spiritual practice; nearly four-in-ten liberals express this belief (39%), compared with 15% of conservatives.”

29% of Americans say they’ve felt in touch with someone who has died. 18% have been in the presence of a ghost and 15% have consulted a psychic or fortuneteller.

“Evangelical Protestants are the group least likely to say they have felt in touch with a dead person (20%). Members of other religious traditions are much more familiar with this type of phenomenon, with 37% of black Protestants, 35% of white Catholics, 31% of the unaffiliated and 29% of white mainline Protestants saying they have felt in touch with someone who has died. Differences between evangelicals and other religious traditions are smaller on the questions of ghostly experiences and consultations with fortunetellers.”

Women report being in touch with a dead person more than men. Women are also more than twice as likely to have consulted a psychic or fortuneteller. (20% vs 10%) Interestingly, a college education doesn’t stop people from consulting a psychic. (13% for the less educated, 17% for those with a college education). Conservatives and Republicans report fewer of these experiences than Liberals or Democrats though.

“In total, upwards of six-in-ten adults (65%) express belief in or report having experience with at least one of these diverse supernatural phenomena (belief in reincarnation, belief in spiritual energy located in physical things, belief in yoga as spiritual practice, belief in the “evil eye,” belief in astrology, having been in touch with the dead, consulting a psychic, or experiencing a ghostly encounter). This includes roughly one-quarter of the population (23%) who report having only one of these beliefs or experiences. More than four-in-ten people (43%) answer two or more of these items affirmatively, including 25% who answer two or three of these items affirmatively and nearly one-in-five (18%) who answer yes to four or more. Roughly one-third of the public (35%) answers no to all eight items.”

“With the exception of white evangelicals, majorities of all major religious traditions report holding at least one of these beliefs or having experienced one of these phenomena. In fact, roughly half of black Protestants (50%), the religiously unaffiliated (48%) and Catholics (47%) answer yes to two or more of these items, as do 43% of white mainline Protestants. A slim majority of white evangelicals (53%) answer no to all eight questions, while 47% indicate belief or familiarity with at least one of these items. Among white evangelicals and white mainline Protestants, higher levels of religious commitment (as measured by frequency of church attendance) are associated with lower levels of belief in these phenomena and familiarity with these experiences.”

“Among the unaffiliated, three-in-ten have had a religious or mystical experience. This is lower than nearly any other religious segment of the population but is still a higher proportion than among the general public in 1962 (22%). These kinds of experiences are particularly common among the “religious unaffiliated” (i.e., those who describe their religion as “nothing in particular” and say that religion is at least somewhat important in their lives), among whom 51% have had a religious or mystical experience. Among self-described atheists, agnostics and the “secular unaffiliated” (i.e., those who describe their religion as “nothing in particular” and say that religion is not important in their lives), roughly one-in-five (18%) say they have had this kind of experience.”

“Mystical or religious experiences are most common among people who regularly attend religious services. More than six-in-ten of those who attend weekly say they have had this kind of experience (61%), compared with half of those who attend monthly or yearly (48%) and just one-third of those who seldom or never attend religious services (33%).”

“Blacks are much more likely than whites or Hispanics (69%, 47% and 44%, respectively) to report religious or mystical experiences. More than half (55%) of baby boomers (age 50-64) identify with such experiences, compared with fewer young adults and seniors (43% each).”

“There is little difference along party lines on this question. Roughly half of Republicans, Democrats and independents say they have had a religious or mystical experience. More than half of conservatives (55%) claim to have had such experiences, similar to the number of liberals who have had these kinds of experiences (50%) and much higher than among moderates (43%).”

Now, as with all surveys, this was just a small, diverse sampling of the public. 4,013 adults to be exact. So keep that in mind.

I guess what I find disturbing is how many diverse and conflicting beliefs these people walk around with. That’s called cognitive dissonance (anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs or the like).  Only I guess it’s not when it doesn’t register in the conscience.

Are the masses of people who populate America this unconscious? This unaware of what they believe? How terrifying is that?

The sad thing is, this isn’t shocking. I mean, just look at what is on offer for TV these days. Ghost Hunter, anyone?

Mindless drivel spoonfed to self-absorbed, willfully ignorant narcissists.

Well, here’s a lolcat to cheer you up!

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Religious folk form their identities through their religious teachings and any information that doesn’t fit their belief system, triggers feelings of insecurity and fear; emotionally, they feel they are being personally attacked–they must abolish the danger and discomfort they feel. They can’t use reason or logic to evaluate any of the millions of facts supporting evolution–because they are indoctrinated and imprinted as children to feel shame and fear if they question their church’s authority.

Don’t waste your time debating Evolution with a creationist; respect the right of others to believe as they wish, but never miss an opportunity to demonstrate the irrational paradox and dangerous delusion that is religious faith.

Anywhere in the world, where education increases, belief in religion declines and inversely, women’s rights increase. The greatest intolerance for religion comes from religious folk’s intolerance of other religions or sub-groups within their own religion.

It’s time to tax all religious businesses and for the greater enforcement of the laws separating church and state; including, but not limited to, the armed forces, religious schools and donations to political parties.

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The best picture Dan took in the museum. I smiled when I saw it.

Did you miss the Creation Museum Field Trip with PZ Myers last month? I did, and so did Dan, my friend from Rationality Now. But he and his friend decided to go to the museum not long after. He wrote up a 6 part tour that I found amazing, disturbing and depressing. His writing is excellent and thorough, quite interesting and fascinating.

So I wanted to share Dan’s investigative tour with you. He sums up my feelings about the place rather perfectly. He has lots of pictures to illustrate as well.

Take a deep breath and dive in:

• Creation Museum Part 1 (which will lead you through to the other 5 parts)
• The Creation Museum Series page, with all the parts listed together

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LAS VEGAS – A self-proclaimed prophet accused of molesting children would threaten his followers with excommunication if they did not succumb to his wishes, Las Vegas Metro police said Monday.

Benito Catello, 75, operated a non-denominational Christian church called The Ministry. Alleged victims told police that members were called “sheep” and they were instructed to call him “papa.”

A 17-year-old girl who accused Catello of molesting her said she had been a member of the church for nearly 10 years. In a police report, she said Catello instructed her to move into his spare bedroom so he could “counsel” her.

But the girl claimed Catello wanted to have sex with her and threatened to degrade her in front of other church members during daily services if she did not comply. The teen also told police Catello threatened to excommunicate her and her entire family.

As a result, the girl said she obeyed his demands and had sex with Catello multiple times. Police said she came forward after she convinced her parents not to let her move back in with Catello.

Catello is also accused of molesting a 13-year-old girl who went to visit her grandmother when the woman wasalso staying at Catello’s home.

When confronted about the accusations, police said Catello’s answer was that if the girls said it happened, it must be true. When asked to clarify, Catello is quoted saying that he was “full of the spirit and can’t help what he does” when he is “full” of it.

Catello is charged with 27 counts of sexual assault, and lewdness with a person under the age of 14.

Full of it? That’s this guy’s excuse? And the members were called “sheep”? What is it with religion and sexual predators?

He’s hoping to use the “full of it” excuse to mollify his sheep. I think religion in general either draws pedophiles and other sexual predators because they know they will have easy and private access to victims under the guise of “counseling”, or that some individuals, once in a position of power, become corrupt and feel they are above man’s law, and use the Bible or Holy Spirit to justify their actions. But here’s the thing—if religion gives people moral guidance and direction, how could this happen? It should be obvious that it doesn’t. Instead, it provides cover for wolves to prey upon the sheep.

Now, I know some would argue that religion is not to blame, it is the pervert who misused the trust placed in them who took advantage of the trusting soul who got molested or taken advantage of. But that begs the question, in my mind anyway, of “Where was God in all this?” I mean, come on, doesn’t most of this stuff happen in His house? And if He’s all powerful, why does He let this happen in His name?

Simple, direct questions which have been asked and argued over ad infinitum. But the fact remains—crimes are committed, and God does nothing to stop them.

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I got another email from Beth! We are still on the topic of cherry-picking, but deal with a few more issues. Here you go, my friends. Your comments are always welcome.

EDIT: Johnny and GMNightmare commented below and I agreed completely with what they said. So I sent her another email a minute ago with that information as an addendum. Since I felt it was important and also sent it to Beth, I wanted to add it to the post, because it all fits right in. Thanks, guys, you’re so awesome!

This “cherry picking” issue is really starting to bug me, honestly. I always viewed cherry picking as using only certain parts of things instead of incorporating the whole for your own convinence. If that is the case, I can assure you I am not. It would only be such if I were to view the Bible as entirely true and without flaws, which I do not. If I were honestly picking and choosing for my benefit then I would be saying all of it was authentic, but then excluding parts of it that redefined the selected part. For example, saying that Jesus was a real man who lived and taught as described in the New Testament does not change anything in the Old Testament. Jesus never stated that the Old Testament laws were the laws of the God he was referring to. I do not mean to sound rude, but I study the Bible very often and it baffles me where you heard such a thing. He does speak of Moses, however that is about the only specific reference that points to the earlier books. He also reads from Isiah, but that does not deal with the law of God, it is mainly about his nature.

Cherry-Pick: Verb: to choose the best items from a selection for oneself, often in an unfair manner.

And what part of selecting choice bits of the bible that you see fit to use, and discarding the rest is not cherry-picking? It’s the very definition thereof. But no amount of definitions, or explanations or logic can budge you from your worldview, so let’s move on. It doesn’t matter why you choose choice bits and throw the rest out, the fact is that you do, at your personal discretion.

Jesus refers to the law of the old testament and the prophets:
Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
~ Jesus says he approves of the old testament laws and the prophets. He has no objection to the cruelties of the old testament, and he says those laws are binding on everyone forever.

The Bible in itself is nothing more then a bunch of documents gathered and put together to make sense. Therefore, to say I disregard them all in favor of just a few is rather silly. Examining each as individuals is how I operate. Also, there is the chance certain books were removed due to the people who edited it. It is not beneath human beings to take out what they don’t like or only put in what they do, regardless if it would significantly change anything.

Well, I don’t know about making sense. That is your opinion, certainly not mine. But I digress. I never said you disregard them all, you just disregard whatever doesn’t go along with your already predetermined idea of what is “true” and “right” to you. And yes, it is true that books were removed and added to the original codex, and that it was edited over time to become what it is today. All the more reason to disregard it as a holy book, since it most assuredly was written by men. But you agree with me there, so we don’t need to go there.

May I suggest studying The Codex Sinaiticus which is the oldest bible known to exist, and which is now available online?

My rewording of what GMN said below: This is a very interesting point. If you can determine, without being a biblical scholar with a degree in such things, what is authentic in the bible and what is not, why do you even need the bible? You’re basically saying you know more than whoever put the bible together. You’re saying that you know the “mind of god”, and what he intends and what he feels and thinks. You don’t need the bible at all.

Now to return to the mystery of Jesus issue. I will be truthful. I am still studying this subject. It seems a new challenge to his existence is presented every year and so in follows a rebuttle to the claim. As far as plagarism goes, I believe it really should be a dead argument. It has already been disproven. I did read your article and many others similar to it. Jesus was not a mythological figure that was a compilation of other ones. Most accusations are exaggerated or aren’t even dated correctly. It is never said in the Bible that Jesus was born Decemeber 25th or that he had 3 wise men attend his birth. However, considering you seem firm in the fact that he never lived I will do my best to address any problems you have with him being real. Although I do have a question, not intended to support my own side, but out of genuine curiousity: why would a history book claim Jesus lived if it is clear (from your perspective) that he hasn’t? I bring this up because I remember in the 10th grade reading from my textbook and Jesus being mentionned as if he truly was a person who walked this earth. The same as any president or dictator. Once again, just wondering.

Who has disproven what? Read the myths from the surrounding areas around the time that jesus supposedly lived and died, and a hundred years after. The early christians were definitely borrowing from the Hellenistic and Egyptian myths, Mithras, etc. Who told you that jesus was a real person? No one knows that. There is no evidence of his existence anywhere.

No, the early christians decided jesus was born on December 25th to help convert pagans to their faith, since they were already celebrating the Winter Solstice on that date. It was a way to increase their numbers by incorporating other traditions and myths into their stories, to get them to convert. It’s all myth. That’s what I’m saying. What about jesus is based in fact? Where is it corroborated anywhere outside of the bible?

Did you go to a religious school? Because talking about religion in a public school is against the separation of church and state. And simply because one person was thoughtless enough to take the bible as fact and put Jesus into a school textbook like any other person does not make him real. It just means whoever wrote that into the book blindly believed as you do. Lots of people believing a lie or a myth doesn’t make it true. And reading something in a book, even a history book, doesn’t make things necessarily true either. Information in history needs to be corroborated. Facts need to be checked and verified from different sources. Just like science needs to be peer reviewed.

I do find it interesting that you’d say jesus was mentioned as true just like any president or dictator. That’s kind of funny. But the difference is that there is lots of evidence from multiple sources about dictators and presidents. That’s how we know what we know. But even then, we must always keep in mind, history is written by the winners.

Johnny adds: Mithra was one of the main deities worshiped in the same location, and just prior to Jesus. His birthday was December 25th on the Gregorian calendar; or at the time of the winter solstice (as were several other gods). The winter solstice was often celebrated as a birth or rebirth of the sun by many cultures, since it is the shortest day of the year and afterward the days start to get longer. In about 350AD, Pope Julius I declared December 25th as Christ’s birthday in attempt to help smooth the acceptance of Christianity by cultures practicing other religions.

Matthew – [2:1] Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, [2:2] Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. … … [2:11] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

If not the birth itself, they were there shortly after according to the Bible.

Johnny adds, regarding the history book claim: There were a couple historians who included reference to Jesus in historical documentation. They were proven to be fraudulent additions made after-the-fact. Unfortunately they are still cited though. Some history books continue to include Jesus as a historical figure (with no religious intent); but have received poor feedback for doing so.

Now there are some documents that provide hints and innuendos; and this is why even atheist scholars speculate that an “apocalyptic prophet in the Danielic apocalyptic tradition” name Yeshua probably did exist. Even some (of the intelligent) theist scholars concede that his deeds are most likely a compilation of multiple apocalyptic prophets. BUT there is no solid reliable evidence that he existed.

I think I covered everything. Oh, by the way, I checked the New Testament again. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being a sin. Also, he never specifically says the laws in the Old Testament are the ones he is talking about. If so, he would reitterate that gays are going to be punished for their lifestyle and he never does. He would also say eating shellfish is wrong, haha.

No, jesus never said anything about homosexuality or shellfish. But he did say he upheld the law (see above: Matthew 5:17-18). So why would he need to reiterate every law from the old testament? He simply had to say the law was fine the way it was, and to say everyone was to follow that law until the end of time. It’s very clear.

What do you think about the resurrected Jesus telling his disciples that he would be back before they died? And that they were to go forth and perform miracles and cures just like he did?

Johnny adds a very valid point I should have mentioned: Something so few Christians don’t seem to contemplate about Jesus (if he existed): Jesus was NOT a Christian! He was Jew!! Whether he was a rabbi, a prophet, or both; most scholars agree that (if he existed) he was probably well versed in the Tanakh (aka the Old Testament). So as Neece mentions (Matthew 5:17-18), when he says none of the laws shall be destroyed, there is no reason to doubt he is talking about all the laws of the Tanakh.

~

Ok… so that’s the newest exchange. My comments were sent to Beth at the same time I posted this, so she hasn’t had a chance to respond yet. Hopefully we’ll be done with the cherry-picking issue soon. That poor dead horse has been beaten down to nothing!

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