Why am I going on about this? Well, there is one thing I absolutely have zero tolerance for; a bible thumping movie. I can’t stand religious propaganda shoved down my throat. Not long after Left Behind went to DVD my dad rented it thinking it was Sci Fi. (we used to go out to dinner and watch a movie afterward as sort of a regular family night) I saw that Kirk Cameron was in it, thought that was a bad sign, but gave it the benefit of the doubt and promptly wasted 2 hours of my life to that dreck. That night Butch (my nearly perfect husband) and I made a pact never to sit through a horrid movie again.

So when I see a movie preview that could look like it’s a “God Movie” I would rather steer clear. Unfortunately a lot of god movies mask it in the previews, and some movies that really don’t have a strong pro-god/pro-religion tone might look like it in the previews.

Enter Christian Answers Movie Reviews! My friend Dan shared this site with me and now I am passing it on to you because I actually found it useful.

I picked a movie I was leery about, The Book of Eli, and here’s what I discovered. First, they describe a lot of scenes so it is a bit of a spoiler. Second, I learned it’s a pretty god-heavy movie that would probably set my nerves on edge. Here’s part of the review:

“The Book of Eli” has an incredible Biblical message, which tells the story of Eli’s unwavering faith as he honor’s God with his life and follows God’s will no matter how hard the journey may be. We see Eli’s faith remain steadfast as he faces many trials and tribulations,

After Solara joins Eli on his mission to preserve the Bible, she inquires about Eli’s inner-strength. He explains to her that he walks by faith and his commitment to follow God’s will has kept him strong. Later in the film, Solara asks Eli to read some passages from the Bible to her, so he recites several passages that he has memorized, and the beauty of the words move her.

While “The Book of Eli”’s respect for the sanctity of God’s Word and the depiction of Eli’s obedience to God is refreshing and inspiring, especially in a mainstream film, brutal violence and language are pervasive throughout.

Carnegie forces Solara to offer herself up to Eli as a prostitute, as leverage to try to get Eli to relinquish the Bible to him. When Solara comes to Eli’s bedroom door to offer herself to him, he refuses and tries to send her away, but Solara pleads with him to let her stay or Carnegie will hurt her mother. Eli takes pity on Solara and lets her stay. He takes the opportunity to teach her how to pray and tell her about God.

There are approximately 12 uses of the f-word, and the Lord’s name is profaned approximately two times in the film.

While I was disappointed to see the end of the film momentarily stray from its powerful Biblical message by subtly implying that the Bible is equal to other religious texts, this implication pales in comparison to Eli’s last amazing act of faith at the end of the film.

Eli’s steadfast commitment to his faith and obedience to God no matter what the price, embodies Christ’s words in Luke 9:23,

“Then he said to them all: ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me’.”

Ha! They said the F-word about 12 times! How horrible! And they said Goddamnit twice! Now they’re all going to burn in hell forever! lol! And they called that “extreme profanity”. That cracks me up.

Oh, and don’t get me wrong, I’m not against  a character being religious in a movie. Just don’t preach to me when I want to be entertained. It’s offensive.

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In my beginning, I was born to both a new mother and new father. My birth was a rather large event to my extended family, for I was the very first great grandchild. As my mother’s family is very close, of course many made an appearance. Near birth, I was blessed and baptized by my great grandfather under Christianity.

Under such pretenses I assume many would suspect that I was raised under a very religious setting. This was luckily not the case. It is worth mentioning that my mother’s ancestors stem from a long line of clergy, and they are all fairly religious… And while my mother is also mildly religious, my family couldn’t seem to find a church that we fit into.

Sure, my family tried—I understand that we were almost sucked into Mormonism. In the end, the situation basically turned out to be a lax kind of religious attitude. There was definitely more church attending during my younger years, but we went less as time progressed. Both my parents worked difficult and long jobs, and Sunday just needed to be an actual day of rest… as well as spending time with their kids.

I vaguely remember somewhere around the age of 10 or so… well, actually quite clearly, a day dining at a restaurant. My parents posed a question, of what we (the kids) thought of hell. My personal response gave the more “good” you where in life the better you would live in heaven… Hell didn’t really exist to me even at this point in my life. My sibling’s response was far cruder; basically amounting to saying a certain relative of ours should go there.

At this point, my parents informed us that our great grandfather had done some “research” into it (Biblical studying hardly amounts to research) and came to the conclusion that hell didn’t really exist as a place. All hell basically amounted to was nothing, you died and that was it. Much like the atheist point of view of death in general actually. This certainly made more sense at the time to me than some torturous place.

A little time later would be about the time I entered a Christian summer camp. A fun place really, but only posed to delay my atheism, if it even could. The reason for Jesus’ existence was answered here, being the sacrifice to end all the sacrifices… I remember this being an epiphany at the time, although it would of course only pose more questions later.

Some more background information here would be helpful before I move on. My life has been quite an easygoing one. I’ve led a very happy life, with few problems or hindrances to bar my path. So when it came to going to church gatherings and this camp, it of course wouldn’t bring me more happiness or joy than I already had.

When your life is full of strife and sadness, a good break every week is a nice and happy moment. I, as said above, had no need for this. It all comes into focus, when comparing myself with the rest of the congregation. They treat these meetings as something that brings them more happiness. For me, I was just as happy there as I was at any other time. You could say I was immune to the “joys” of the church.

So back at the camp, there would be nightly fireside chats. Other kids would share their god stories… where a prayer would be answered, or they were helped out through harsh times. Out came another problem… I simply didn’t have any. I tended to doubt each story as well—typically not the story itself, but the intervention or actual act of god in it.

Perfectly reasonable actions were attributed to god. Even worse, the positive actions of others were explained away as simply god’s plan. These stories did not sit well with me. I would ask myself, “Why do these people believe those were acts of god? What acts then do come from god?” Let me tell you, mind tangling questions…

The only real answer that even starts to work is god controls them all: good or bad. You know, god tests you… There was a big flaw here, coming from my situation: why wasn’t god “testing” me? Why was I so much more blessed than anyone else? Two cases then: I didn’t need it, but then why would anybody need it? Or I take the more egotistical approach that I was special.

As much as people like to assume, I’m not quite as egotistical as I would seem. I did not like the notion that I was special and that everybody else wasn’t based upon god’s seemingly random will. Let’s face it as well; the Bible never really helps unless you know where to look… And of course, depending on where you look, you’ll get different answers.

Upon leaving the camp, I would of course revert to what I normally did during summers… Programming video games and debating online. The programming is relatively irrelevant; the debating on the other hand consisted of all topics including religious ones. They were all of course very intellectually stimulating; debating such things as parallel universes, dimensions, the meaning of life, and so forth.

From all the experiences compacted with time, I would eventually start to become nonreligious. Unfortunately I would still consider myself Christian for quite a number of years, although quite clearly my beliefs did not match the title. In fact, I hardly doubt my beliefs ever really matched the title. It still would not be until the start of my college years that I would come to the notion that I was not a Christian, and was indeed nonreligious.

I still had a belief in god at this time mind you. My view of god consisted of basically the god that is just there in everything. I would come to understand that my views aligned with that of Pantheism a little while later. Fairly word for word, and for never hearing about Pantheism before I was quite surprised.

Finding a religion that pretty much directly coincided with my beliefs gave me gumption. Eureka was the thought, but I knew what this meant in its entirety. Pantheism is very agnostic in its nature; it basically amounts to feeling that it’s true and I had come to this conclusion. In fact, Pantheism is akin to atheism, except with a belief in god… it’s one of the most basic yet at the same time advanced forms of theism. Thus, I felt far more aligned to atheism than Christianity at this point in time.

My questioning wouldn’t stop there. The fundamental question that made the difference was “Why do I believe what I believe?” Why? Just to feel good? Just to fit in? Was it just easier to explain to the masses? In a way, yes was the reply to all of those questions.

A belief in god still felt good. A belief in god still allowed me to fit in. A belief in god was easier to explain. None of those answers were intellectually sound. Why should I believe something with such weak convictions such as those? The answer of course is I shouldn’t—or not that I shouldn’t but that I didn’t want to.

Of course this didn’t happen that quickly or easily, but progressed over quite a large sum of time. But when everything was said and done, I had become an atheist. Let’s make certain, debate and rigorous pursuit of knowledge has never stopped this whole time. It indeed continues to this day. Thus, the story does not end there.

Oh no, we have only gotten to the atheism, the question of how I came to be gnostic still remains. This is very much a recent change, as in, barely a week before I wrote this. There is a very exact process into which I came upon this as well. It happens to center around my confrontations with none other than professed agnostics.

First, let us clarify. Atheism means you don’t have a belief in god. On the other hand, being agnostic simply says you think god is impossible to prove or disprove, or in other words that you don’t know. Now you can be an agnostic theist… or you can be an agnostic atheist. Not knowing while also not believing is a fluffy way of saying you don’t have a belief in god (but may have one later), thus atheist (currently). The majority of atheists are agnostic.

So here’s the issue: I run across a lot of posts by claimed agnostics that being in a religion or being atheist is both equally ignorant. That’s putting it nicely.Constantly having to say they are actually atheists themselves, becomes quite a hassle—also put nicely. Now most claimed agnostics (that aren’t theists) claim to be agnostics for two reasons… first are the negative stereotypes against atheism, and second being they just don’t understand the terms. The agnostics that I’m talking about here also happen to be incredibly egotistical to boot. Here’s the funny bit, they seemed to be gnostic about their agnosticism…

This brings us to the question, what is knowledge? Knowing does not mean truth; it means you regard it as true. Knowing is paradoxical in its nature, how can anything be known with exact certainty? It can’t, but for the sake of progress we have to start at some point.

I’ve argued against countless excuses for god. I’ve found fundamental flaws against any kind of omni-ability. I’ve argued against not only the existence but the uselessness of a creator. Essentially, I’ve argued if god cannot be known in this reality then god has no basis in this reality. I’ve even argued the word classification of the word god even.

All and all, perhaps it’s just more honest. I have found flaws and argued against all types of gods, how much more must it take to know? I’ve argued against the whole notion, reason, and existence of god… why can I not be certain there is no god?

And that, is my story of why I am a gnostic atheist.

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I’ve heard of Betty Bowers but have never experienced her until just the other day. She’s America’s Best Christian, and she can teach us all quite a lot!
First, awhile ago she did this video explaining prayer to everyone else. Persistence counts, people! It’s very informative and helpful. I’ll have a bigger house with a real dishwasher, a maid, and a fireplace in no time! Woot! 4:07 minutes long.

Then a more recent, better edited video from just the other day, Betty takes the time to explain traditional marriage to everyone else. I thought I was happily married, but now I know the truth. Oh well. 4:14 minutes chock full of helpful information. Thanks, Betty!

Now we’re all properly educated and blissfully informed! Yay! I had some silly old scientific studies to share, but when you are a good christian like Betty and Edward, you don’t need stuffy old science at all!

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Recently I decided to see about finding a few friends from high school. I found one, we’ll call him Pete. We have been chatting on Facebook and it was looking like maybe we could be friends again. I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. Well, then I mentioned that I went to a group meeting this past Sunday. I realized after mentioning it that the very name of the group would open up the discussion of religion and I tried to change the subject. I didn’t want to lose a friend before even getting him back.

The meeting I went to was for Morgantown Atheists. I’ve become rather active with them, as they are local, seem quite friendly, and hey, they’re atheists! Yay! Well, Pete immediately asked me, why am I an atheist? I started to tell him. I said that there’s no evidence for any gods. He said he had proof of god and the afterlife. I was intrigued and asked him for details, and to tell me why he is a christian, and he then told me 2 stories from his past, which have made him a believer.

He has a very unusual set of beliefs, culled together from different christian ideas, but mainly filtered down to only be the happy stuff. The stories he told were very much not happy. So I guess it makes sense for him to see the afterlife as a good thing.

As he told me more and more, I realized that if I said anything at all, to shine the light of logic and reason onto his stories and perceptions of god and the afterlife, that I’d alienate him as well as make him mad. He apparently derives great comfort from his beliefs, and I didn’t think it was appropriate to burst his bubble with talk of evidence, especially since it was clear that he felt he had more than enough proof. In fact, at one point he asked me if he had freaked me out. I had to say no, and that it wasn’t going to convert me either.The thing is, he ended the conversation and I haven’t heard from him since.

On a side note, my sisters-in-law are also very religious and on Facebook. They were in my face about god and praying and stuff until I finally reminded one of them that I refuse to pray for anyone. Right after that I started getting more atheist friends over there, thanks to you fine people, and I started sharing and posting more atheist stuff on my page. They have since stopped talking to me.

The other sister-in-law (that I didn’t confront about prayer) still comments if I put up a happy post about how lovely the weather is, but neither have chatted with me since I’ve become more vocal in my atheism on Facebook. What’s really sad is that it’s not really a great loss. I was constantly trying to stifle my irritation at them shoving their god down my throat. So now things are much less frustrating. But they’re part of my family, so it’s still sad.

Anyway, while in the middle of the conversation with Pete, I thought, hey, I’ll contact the Morgantown Atheists forum and ask for some help! I felt that I was too frustrated to not snap at Pete, so I thought maybe they could give me some objective pointers. I sent a message to them and got some great advice back. I thought I’d share it with you, so we all have it for when atheists and religious family and friends collide.

I’m sure you all have your ways to deal with this stuff. I already use a lot of this information all the time. But it just seemed particularly helpful all in one place.

First, David Mills wrote Atheist Universe. I’ve read the first 2 chapters awhile ago and loved it, but I was reminded that the second chapter is a question and answer between a christian and David, the atheist. If you go to his website, he offers the second chapter in audio format to listen to. I found that to be a great refresher and reminder, as well as found a few new points that I had missed when I read it. Now I’m going to read the rest of the book. (Sometimes I’m a bit slow with books, but I get there eventually.)

Neil offered me this advice: (I changed the beginning to sort of a list for easy reference)

Personally, I would say:

• “I’m an atheist, for the same reason that you’re an atheist, when it comes to gods like Zeus”.
• Atheism isn’t a rejection of any God, it is just the default position, the null position. I just don’t believe in magical, or supernatural, things until there is adequate evidence to support it.
• Also, I notice that people often tend to get “get stuck” into the same beliefs of their parents, be they; Christians, Hindus, Muslims (or even the followers of Zeus). Because of that, it seems to me, that all religions are just dogma perpetuated from one generation to the next. And it seems to me to be just an arbitrary accident of birth, as to which one we end up getting saddled with. I try to keep an open mind, but until I see adequate supporting evidence I’ll just keep my default position.

Don’t be surprised if your friend seems a little bi-polar with you, from day to day. I’ve gotten into the God conversation with a very close friend and I found out that his Christian friends were telling him, on some days, how great it was that he can witness to me (the atheist). But, on other days they were telling him that he should remove himself from any godless people, and/or godless influences. Personally, I think “believers” are quick to try to pigeon-hole everything into two classifications, Good and Evil. So again, don’t be surprised by him getting a little bi-polar with you.

If it is a healthy, fair and rational discussion, you should be free to bring it up in conversations, and/or ask just as many questions, as he does. It is also very helpful (in any discussion) to try to be aware of your word choices, try not to put him on the defensive. Use qualifiers like “I think”, “its my opinion”, “I’ve heard”. Try to be inclusive by saying things like “we get saddled”, “we can’t know”. If you think your statement will be too attacking (How can YOU! think that) try deflecting your “attack” into something like “how can Christians think that”. And you may want to have him, and you, both agree that it is ok to disagree, when all is said and done. Nether of you should expect to change the other’s position. Discussions like this are more about learning the other’s position (at least to a better degree) and learning about gaps your own knowledge about your own position.

To help you articulate your position, as an atheist, you should definitely read/listen to books like Atheist Universe (which is sounds like your doing), The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation (it’s a quick read). I really like Bill Maher’s movie/documentary “Religulous” (you should be able to find it at BlockBuster or on NetFlix). You might want to recommend Religulous to your friend, it’s very funny, in places, and may be eye opening for him. I’ve changed my cell phone’s name (it’s blue tooth name) to say “U Must C Religulous”, I don’t know how often people look for other blue tooth devices, but if I’m around they see that

Neil
Beckley, WV
gotscience@verizon.net
http://www.myspace.com/99277352

Neil asked me to give his contact information in case anyone had questions, which I thought was pretty cool.
A few notes: Religulous was a great movie. I recommend it. I haven’t read the other 2 books. If you have feel free to give us a review in the comments.

I also got a short note from another group member who added:

The advice the others gave is very good, especially the David Mills Q&A that you downloaded. But don’t expect too much because in my experience most believers are coming from an emotional stance, not an evidence based one. So don’t be surprised if all the evidence in the world won’t convince him. To paraphrase Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything, because their belief is based on a deep seated need to believe.”

I didn’t get his permission so I won’t give his name. But it’s good stuff too, so I thought I’d share it.

If you have any thoughts on how to talk to true believers about atheism and religion, feel free to share! We can all use new techniques for these potentially difficult confrontations.

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This was so helpful to me. I forgot how lonely, hopeless and desperate I am as an atheist. Now I guess all I have left is to go kill some kittens and babies. Be right back!

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You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting—
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

from Dream Work by Mary Oliver
published by Atlantic Monthly Press
© Mary Oliver

Why am I sharing this?

This is my favorite poem. When I first heard it over a decade ago, it struck me as a palliative to what ailed me. I was floundering within the christian world, not actively, but still completely under it’s crushing jackboot of guilt and sacrifice. I had no idea why I was so unhappy and confused. But this poem was beacon. Here was someone telling me I did not have to martyr myself, repenting over forced morals of an ancient and barbaric god. I didn’t clearly understand this at the time, but I still felt a palpable relief.

It still took me many years to fully shrug off the burden of religion. A long and difficult journey, sometimes quite painful and frightening. But entirely worth it.

I was thinking of this poem today and just wanted to share it with you. Do you have any words or images that you’ve found comforting or helpful in your life? I’d love to know what they are. If your story is too long for a comment, email it to me at heavingdeadcats@gmail.com. If you want to be anonymous, also email and let me know. But I’d like to share your story with everyone. I think it’s helpful for us to share and learn from each other.

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This is ludicrous and terribly backwards. By labeling us, they have started the “holy war” against atheists. Not us. In my 39 years, I’ve never met a militant atheist. But I have seen and dealt with many militant, close-minded, hateful, fundamentalist religious folks.

So words are very important.

Hess was looking up synonyms for atheist on Dictionary.com for our new project (as you can see, we settled on Heaving Dead Cats) and pointed out something rather irritating.

atheist – noun:
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Then it conveniently lists synonyms.

Synonyms: Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

Ok, this isn’t so bad. This is from Dictionary.com’s first listing.

But down near the bottom of that page, Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary has a quote about atheism:

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. –R. Hall.

Ok, I’m not trying to nitpick, but that quote is ridiculous. First, it’s completely false, and second, it’s negative and biased. When giving a quote that helps explain a word, wouldn’t it be more useful and more positive to use a neutral thought, or even a positive one?

The Online Etymology Dictionary in the middle of the page was able to do just that:

“The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell.” [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943]

Ok, over to the Thesaurus tab and this is interesting as well.

atheist has 3 synonyms: agnostic, heathen, pagan.
Are you kidding me? Agnostic and atheist are 2 completely different ways of thinking. We’ll have to define heathen and pagan.

heathen‘s second definition is: 2. an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person.

Down to Websters’s to see how they list heathen:
1. An individual of the pagan or unbelieving nations, or those which worship idols and do not acknowledge the true God; a pagan; an idolater.

Now onto pagan:
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.

I’ve always thought of pagans as having many gods. But I see the term has come to mean not christian, jew or muslim. So in that respect it fits.

Of course, Webster’s is less objective:
1. An individual of the pagan or unbelieving nations, or those which worship idols and do not acknowledge the true God; a pagan; an idolater.

Ok then. Good to know. Call me a heathen or a pagan. The terms loosely fit. But I’m an atheist through and through. Definitely not an agnostic.

But I’ve learned that Webster’s dictionary is quite biased towards christianity. Good for us to know!

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